verble dysraixa tell me about it please

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we have been told dd sounds like she as this we been seeing salt since she was 8 months due to her none eating and other medical needs, but now as i put they think she as verbal dyspepsia too, she babbles lots and some words are very clear. but she bringing an other salt with her this month to check!

i am trying to find out as much as i can before they come!

Mrs bean - is this similar to the Nuffield System, or something different?

It's just a sign you add on to what you're doing.. so we would use it with Nuffield, but as a cuing system for the different sounds.

Unlike other cues that people use for different sounds it's based on the actual manner and place of production so e.g. voiced sounds ('d' instead of 't' for example) use two fingers, plosive sounds (p, b, t, d, k, g) have a short 'popping' kind of action that matches what you do in your mouth with them etc etc

I find the kids really latch onto it and sometimes you can see them use it to cue themselves to say the sound. Even kids with developmental co-ordination disorder (DCD/body dyspraxia) benefit from adults cuing the sounds. No evidence for it that I can offer you, but I honestly find it so, so useful.

Also later when you are working on spellings you can use the colour-coding to support synthetic phonics - but don't ask me to explain that online because I can only do that through demonstration!

hi ds is 4 and we got the dx 6 months ago , we have a very good salt at the moment but will lose her as she works with preschool children only.but even then its only every 6-8 weeks is it worth me demanding notice lol not asking for referal to the nuffield

does it make it harder when dc have verbal and oral dyspraxia he mosty makes eeeeeeee and ah ah sounds

HE does have salt in his statement but none is quite sure who it will be the *normal salt is on maternity leave and it is agreed language wise ds is as bad as it can be+

What does it say re: SALT in the statement, Phoenix? Is it in Part 6 or in Part 3, do you know?

salt is in psrt 3 thanks to mumsnet or would not had a clue we got 3 visits a term by salt plus minimum 3 times week to doa program with trained memeber of staff

salt availability is really bad here hence ds only sees one every 2 months but verbally he just has not made any progress and yet we worked every day on it

Have been reading the site for some time, but felt compelled to share my experience with phoenix 4725. My child was almost four, with little speech just single words, poorly formed, and used for labelling rather than conversation. Wasn'nt getting anywhere with salt. A friend, an experienced primary teacher, advised me to get my child used to his voice. I made up simple songs all to the same tune, most of which had the word poo in them as this kept him interested. We shouted them out in the park, on the way to school, in the supermarket, in the car etc every opportunity. people must have thought I was mad. It captured his attention, he was familiar with the melody, the poo element in each song amused him and retained his interest. All kids are amused by this word for some reason!! Get your child shouting and using their voice first, get them comfortable with using their voice. Focus on this first, in my experience the sounds then start to develop and you have the foundation for therapy.

Pengelly

thank you its always postive to hear someoens elses stories

did you ever get a dx ?

trouble im finding is he cant make sounds i sing nursery rhymes though he does put fingers over ears me thinks slight tune problem with my voice

read books chatter away to him nad he answers me witha ohh and a eeeeeeeee then a sign , he really wants to communicate and is very loving affectionate child desperatley trys tobut he just cant seem to do it .But am not giving up would settle for just hearing mum just the once , though does make me grin and heart melt when pick him up from nursery and he signs mummy

he does not like loud yelling voices makes him cover ears,

Thankyou so much Mrs. Bean...you have been more helpful in your post than DS's SALT has been - ever! She last saw DS in May and was completely happy to leave him as he is until the next review in September, then five more sessions in January-ish . It is only because I have put my foot down, that things are finally moving...and I had to wait for her to have her 3 weeks leave before making the referral...then she forgot 3 times....then she came back saying she hadn't realised DS had to have a pre-assessment with her first, before having a proper assessment. All this has given me very little faith in her, especially as she has never even heard DS speak . And I am still waiting for her to arrange a hearing test...
Pinkie

fingers crossed we got a referal to the nuffield andalso got to see the cleft palate team a airand drink comeout ds nose not his mouth

Phoenix that's great news - the Nuffield are great from what I've heard.

Pinkie, that sounds worrying. You need to find out what the care pathway is for dyspraxia in your trust. It may be that your SLT's hands are tied by a poor care pathway/staff shortages etc and her decisions are based on this. Or.. it may be that it is her. Or it may be somewhere in between. You need more info, either way, to know what you are entitled to. Pathways vary hugely from area to area. In our trust, our evidence-based pathway technically affords kids with dyspraxia ongoing regular therapy without breaks.. however in reality this just isn't feasible with the numbers of speech therapists in the trust and so kids we would ideally like to see even MORE than this get seen fortnightly/monthly (and that's still a lot higher than in other trusts).

But it's hard, because we can't keep up with what we'd like to do a lot of the time because the numbers are just so huge.

The evidence does say that children with dyspraxia should be seen for ongoing, intensive speech and language therapy. I can get you references probably.. if you want to complain.

Mrs Bean I would love referances as were going to get even less salt than we do now once ds is at school .

How do we find out what pathwyas are for verbal dyspraxia are? here its been onevisit every 2 months and now we will have 2 visits a term well thts if they have a salt as currently one that covers school is on maternity leave

DS had his SALT assessment, and it all went quite well.
The therapist says his problems are:

Possible need for grommits...referring for a hearing test.
Very large tonsils and addenoids, referring to ENT with view to removing.
Vocal chords are not meeting properly when making loud sounds.
Cannot say 'aaaah'...his tongue gets in the way.
Tongue is very high in his mouth.
Weakness in lips, but tongue strength has improved.
Showing some signs of Verbal Dyspraxia, and will probably have the Nuffield VD assessment.
Will need 1-2-1 SALT, as group sessions are not targeting the areas he needs help in.

I have been told to use sign language with him, PECS - which I think he will find too babyish and even more frustrating, or another which I cannot remember the name of, but which uses gestures instead of actual signs.
SALT says he should be able to start the 1-2-1 sessions within 2-3 weeks, so I am really pleased...I knew it was worth putting my foot down and getting things sorted!

The only thing I didn't like about the assessment, is that the SALT still hasn't had a conversation with DS...even after I asked her to. I know she has seen/heard him making all the sounds, but I would feel she would get a better understanding of how he speaks if she had actually spoken to him. Especially as when he speaks, things get more and more muddled the further into the converation, and as things he is telling me get more involved! I did explain all this, but she says she has heard all she needs to...[hmmm]
Pinkie

Hi

Phoenix
Am working on the references.. weren't as easy to come by as I thought! I know they're on a particular document, but finding that document...

Pinkiepunksmummy
Was the sign language Makaton? You would be amazed at what putting an alternative communication system in place does for kids with speech disorders. Don't worry about it being 'babyish' or preventing him from speaking.. it tends to relieve frustration massively. There are higher tech communication aids that can be looked at - but typically a child needs to have shown some interest in and/or aptitude for a low-tech system first (e.g. Makaton or PECS). PECS has the advantage that anyone can read and follow the message - signs need to be learned by the listener too and can be tricky for kids with co-ordination difficulties BUT sign is a more natural language system and can be used infinitely so pros and cons there.

I'm working with a 16 year old with dyspraxia who is just about to get an AAC (communication) device for the first time (and is VERY excited about it!). He had extremely severe dyspraxia and didn't really combine words until he was in Year 5 as his speech difficulties were so extreme. His earliest memory is getting lost in a supermarket and not being able to tell anyone who he was (as they couldn't understand him). He does talk now but longer words are still unclear and often difficult to understand and so he's getting his device to support with these.. I think parents have a natural reluctance in relation to comm aids but I think the earlier they are put in place, the better. If and when speech begins to develop, the child will naturally use speech in preference to an alternative system so give it a whirl, pink..

Re: conversation.. don't know here really. Has she heard him talk to you? I will say that it's pretty hard to pick out anything useful at conversational level assessment-wise re: speech disorder... it would be expected that with dyspraxia it would become more muddled with increasing sentence length (with increasing sequencing errors etc) but it's quite difficult (without extensive transcription, which takes about an hour - and often more - for five minutes worth of recorded spoken material) to extrapolate anything that you can work on or target, and even here you would be reducing that conversation into constituent parts (individual sounds, syllables, words etc). It's not redundant but it's resource-intensive for minimal return compared to the types of assessments you've been doing. Part of the need to break things down in assessment is to reach an achievable target. Working at conversational level is usually the final, rather than the initial, step. Too many variables. Hope this makes sense!

Oh sorry, Phoenix, re: pathways - just ask! Ring up your therapist and discuss. You may be directed to a manager. Say you're unclear about what's happening and you know that there are pathways for clinical care in the NHS and you'd really like to see them for your own interest and reassurance about what is happening/will happen with your child. If they don't stump up, I'm not sure.. don't know if it's covered by the Freedom of Information Act.. but let's cross that bridge when you come to it. But if you approach them in a spirit of openness (e.g. don't sound like you're about to sue 'em!) they should be happy to discuss the procedures and protocols with you.

HTH

hi pinkiepunksmum

Glad there sorting something out and hope you ge the salt you wanted.And Ds uses makton and its made sunch a differnace to him to be able to communicate

Mrs Bean
Than you will phone up and make gentle enquires but its become complicated as ds is now under school team .Herd today nuffield wont be happening salt had already phoned and spoken to them and faxed some stuff they thn phoned me up and had chat and based on what I said and what salt has said they feel there is nothing they can do to help atm as ds is just not making enough sounds let alone attempting words

I thought I would come back to up-date!

It has been decided that DS HAS NOT got Verbal Dyspraxia.....he has a mobile/loose jaw (he has Hypermobility Syndrome which affects every single one of his joints, so it makes sense).

Apparently the laxity in his jaw along with the pain it (probably - pain in all other joints) causes him, is stopping him making the sounds correctly.

Along with the other problems picked up in assessment...
large tonsils and adenoids,
vocal chords not meeting together properly,
tongue too high in mouth,
recurrent throat infections, and blisters on left tonsil at assessment,
possible hearing problems,
weakness in lips,
weakness in tongue, this is all hindering his speech.

I now have to wait for the appointments with ENT and Audiology, before any more SALT sessions are given, although they have said definately 1-2-1 and more regular. And I've been sent another review date....two months later than the original one aaarrrgghhhhh!!!

And, I'm not even sure if there is anything that can be done for the loose jaw....physio is not really helping with his other joints and he is in so much pain all the time. I am almost wishing he does need grommits and his tonsils/adenoids removed, because this might be easier than 'fixing' his jaw
Pinkie

glad they going to give ore salt session seems they have wrote ds of .

We even been turned down by nuffields

yes i to wondered if ds has same problem with his jaw as he has hypermobility as well.as for physo were having no luck either

Hi Phoenix, I am sorry to hear you've beeen turned down.
My DS has trouble eating because of his jaw....soft foods like pasta are okay, but he only eats tiny amounts of meat. Well, really only ham or shredded chicken breast. He gets so tired from chewing, and eating that he rarely finishes a meal, and struggles to carry on after a few mouthfuls. Is your DS similar? I am still waiting for an appointment with a dietician for help with this
Does your son get pain from the hypermobility? DS is living on co-codamol at the moment, just to appear 'normal' and we are trying to get his physio and paed to refer to GOSH for a proper treatment plan.
Pinkie

Yes ds does not do chewy food and has been known to spit things out after chewing.Dietcian was useless shes like well he is taking enough calories in

yes ds gets fair bit of pin some nights he just scream and his legs are in knots.He cant tell me as nonverbal but its obvious.We saw specialist recently and i was like but on whole ds is happy.She pointed out that ds has probably always been in some kind of pain so its normal to him.

ug dont our physio useless we have no treatment or excersis plan.And we no longer have a paed