Possible AS and retaliating when teased

[debs40]

Hi

Looking for some advice/shared experiences.

My DS is 6 and has possible AS ? undergoing assessment at the moment.

He is a quiet and good tempered boy but sensory problems (food/tactile/smell) are his main issue with some hypotonia/ hypermobility/coordination issues.

Today, his teacher had a chat with me after school as he had been given a ?red card? for grabbing another boys? lip in class when he was teasing him. The boy?s lip was scratched. The other boys is very bouncy and often teases DS who can?t stand it.

DS never gets into trouble at this school but he did a bit when he was in his reception year at another school when he was always being told not to retaliate when hit by others!

DS has told me a couple of times recently that people have pushed him over or sat on him at playtime and he hasn?t had the strength to push them off so has lashed out rather than telling the teacher.

He just doesn?t seem to know how to deal with this sort of thing. To disengage and tell the teacher. I explained this to his teacher who was really good and said she could see what I meant and that she agreed he didn?t seem to have the skills to deal with it.

Would you say this is part of possible AS? How would you deal with it? He was definitely out of order today as no one had hit him. It was silly teasing but I have told him about retaliating and about not getting involved but he seems to hit back when others t him and then he gets told off. He never stands up for himself when he?s told off either

DS1 has an IEP and 10 mins 1 to 1 everyday. He has a DX of ASD but I have not applied for a statement as the school is providing everything we need for the moment.

BR

I think it's a bit strong to call this bullying.

These are 5 and 6 years olds we're talking about here. They are experimenting themselves. Although I'm sure there are some children who are intentionally trying to hurt at this age, I still think a lot of this is experimentation. They get a rise from doing it so they push some more. In a normal situation, an NT child would probably have responded by making fun of the other boys name, or punching him!!!.

NT children are still learning at this age too. They don't instinctively know what is wrong and what is right.

Basically, we can only protect our children so much. We have to teach them how to cope with this in the real world, not in an idealised world where everyone is going to treat them with kid gloves....

SOrry to rant.. or my high horse now

BR

Teasing in such a manner is to my mind bullying; it can be very hurtful. I still think that what this other child did to debs's son is a deliberate act on his part. These kids know very well what they are doing and they should know the difference between right and wrong.

BR - BTW would you go for a Statement in the event you felt that the school was not meeting your son's needs?. I would seriously consider getting such a document particularly before Junior school.

I think it is a difficult one which is why I posted. I am loathe to use the word 'bullying' too. However, as these kids will be in Y2 next year, I think it becomes more obvious which kids will use this type of behaviour maliciously and who are just being silly.

I feel, as a mum, that this other boy (who is a PITA to be honest) probably knew only to well that he was causing offence. He was also very happy that he had got DS into troubly as he was full of glee telling me about it and went in with his mum after us cheering!

However, he is also bouncy and immature and still only just 6. He is also the sort of kid who routinely gets into trouble and treats it like water off a duck's back. So he was probably glad someone else was getting the telling off for a change.

The school have been very helpful so far and have accomodated DS with all his clothes and PE worries. His teacher was sympathetic about yesterday's incident too. Another child would not have been dealt with in that way. She could see he has problems in knowing how to respond.

I think the first step is to exchange views with the school at parents evening on Monday and see what they think should happen for next year.

debs40

You can apply for a Statement without a diagnosis.

BTW are you under the care of a developmental paediatrician?. You can ask for such a referral via your GP. CAMHS certainly have their place but ASD is not necessarily their speciality.

Debs

I can see why you are loathe to use the word bullying but I have come across similar situations and in each case the other child's actions were deliberate. I could not give a stuff frankly that this other boy is 6; these kids should know the difference between right and wrong!. This other child's actions are only too telling as well.

Can the school arrange for your son to see an Ed Pysch?. This person may come up with some useful suggestions and may recommend a statement as well. I would also be seeing the SENCO as a matter of course.

Hi Attilla,
Yes absolutely. As DS1 is only going into Year 1 in Spetember it is sonething that is on the back of my mind. I will appraise the situation again at the end of next year.

Sounds like the other kid has issues of his own to me Debs and you're doing all the right things. Agree with Developmental Paed though. We've never touched CAMHS, everything has been through Paed.

BR

We have seen the community paed (school doctor) who referred to the developmental paed and also SALT and OT.

We saw a consultant developmental paed at the hospital as he is the 'gateway' to CAMHS (they call it Child and Family Services) and he will have a psychological assessment there apparently (?). He only saw us for about 20 mins to confirm the referrals.

I understand that this is all part of a multi-disciplinary approach and that there are lots of assessments to undertake - SALT/OT/Psych before any dx.

I suppose that's what makes it hard to find the right way forward. He copes wonderfully most of the time but there are clear problems around routines, sensory issues, some social skill issues and writing (because of poor muscle tone/hypermobility).

I have heard lots of negative things about CAMHS on this board so I am slightly worried about it. But it seems to be a routine part of the referral here

Thanks for your help guys. I don't know what I'd do without this board

Hi BR

With regards to any potential request that you make for a Statement it is often better to do such sooner rather than later and particularly before the child reaches Junior school. Y1 can be very different from reception; this is where the hard work educationally starts.

You can apply for the statement yourself from the LEA (parents have far more rights that school ever do in this regard) and you don't need schools permission to do so.

Has your child to date seen an Ed Pysch?. This may be worth pursuing with the school particularly when your DS is in Y1. Also SENCO should be closely overseeing your DS's progress. The IEP should be done with you present.

Attilla, don't want to hi-jack Debs thread so briefly:

Haven't seen ed psych. Do we need to?

Have an IEP that was updated last week with SENCO who is very helpful.

Educationally he's ok at the mo, apart from social communication and behaviour. Will definitely keep your advise in mind as we go into the next year.

Thanks - so confusing. Is the Ed Psych different to CAMHS then? What part does he/she play in any dx assessment?

DS is coming to the end of Y1 at the moment so will be in Y2 in September.

The school have not mentioned anything about SENCO (although the SENCO is his teacher for half the week). I get the feeling he (the SENCO) has not seen much of the problems and it is the other teacher who has been in communication with me most of the time

The SENCO is deputy head and stricter (!) and DS tends to mask his problems more with him - I feel anyway

Thanks for this Attila

Debs, your DS sounds a lot like mine. He has ASD (a "social communication disorder", apprantly) hypermobility and hypersensitivity to sound and smell, and hypo to touch/pain) We had a multi-disciplinary assesment where the Paed, OT and SALT were all in the rooom at the same time. Took 2 hours but had a DX at the end of it.

Is this what you will be having?

If you like I can pass on some of the advice the OT gave me for improving handwriting. DS has an awful grip and the hypermobility is probably the main cause. I've also recently bought DS1 some junior caring cutlery (reccommended by nice MNers) which has enabled DS1 to use a knife properly for the first time.

Do they have other SN children at the school with similar issues? We have so can use the equipemnt and skills that they already have at the school (we're very lucky)

BR

I'm not sure BR - it seems that we are being sent for these other assessments individually. I'm not sure what happens after that. I asked the paed whether we would need to see him again and he said no. But he was not easy to communicate with.

The school doctor told me that the reason for this appointment was to make sure she was not missing anything (she made the initial referrals for SALT/OT) and to decide if DS needed further assessment from CAMhs.

Presumably, the assessments are reported back centrally? But it looks like it's going to take months.

His SENCO teacher did say to me that there were things they could start working on when I reported back about the doctor. I will ask about this further and whether they have other children in the same position.

Any advice gratefully received BR!

Ed Pysch and CAMHS are two separate entities.

EP can make recommendations re schooling and possible request for a Statement. EP is a useful person to have on side and they work for the LEA. Usually the EP makes 2 or 3 visits a year to school and will see only one or two children per visit. This is why your DS may not have been seen by such a person to date.

My God it's so confusing!! Do the school request him/her to come in?

Thanks Atilla. It's all such a minefield. Silly questions, but what does the Ed Psych actually do, or can they do for us?

Debs, As I don't know what your DS1's issues are I can only quote what we were told last month and hope it's useful.

DS1s grip is sort of upside down, as you would expect a lefthanded person to write, only he's rigthanded, which means he can't move the pen about the page very easily as his wrist is turned over. OT said to try using small chunky chalks or crayons to encourage pencil grip. Also suggested rubber grips for pens but not sure which we'll use yet as want to get same as school.

Suggested kneeling up at a chalkboard so that he has to hold his arm up. This will strengthen (he has lack or core strength and accross girdle of shoulders) and force him to hold the chalk properly, from below IYSWIM.

A revelation for me was using a writing slope (use an A4 leverarch file at home) as this makes a huge difference.

As for cutlery, we tried a few sets and it seems that chunky handles were easier for him to use but some other MNers reccomemnded the Junior Caring Cutlery here which is fab.

I also went to a NAS HELP seminar recently and they gave us tons of info on handy gafdgets for senisitivy issues. Have you been on the NAS site?

BR

BR,

Some info for you:-

An educational psychologist is concerned with helping children or young people who are experiencing problems within an educational setting with the aim of enhancing their learning. These may include learning difficulties and social or emotional problems. They work directly with young people as individuals or in groups and also advise teachers, parents, social workers and other professionals who are involved.

Their work with individual children involves an assessment of the child using observation, interviews and test materials. They offer a wide range of appropriate interventions such as learning programmes and collaborative work with teachers. Educational psychologists also provide in-service training for teachers and other professionals on issues such as behaviour and stress management.

The work can also involve advising on educational provisions and policies and carrying out research.

Typical work activities
Typical work activities include:

assessing young people?s learning and emotional needs which involves working directly with them and observing and consulting with multi-agency teams to advise on the best approaches and provisions to support their learning and development;
developing and supporting therapeutic and behaviour management programmes;
designing and developing courses on topics such as bullying for parents, teachers and others involved with the education of children and young people;
writing reports to make formal recommendations on action to be taken, including formal statements;
advising, negotiating, persuading and supporting teachers, parents and other education professionals;
attending case-conferences involving multidisciplinary teams on how best to meet the social, emotional, behavioural and learning needs of the children and young people in their care;
prioritising effectiveness: the context and environment that influences the child?s development is seen as increasingly important;
liaising with other professionals and facilitating meetings, discussions and courses;
developing and reviewing policies;
conducting active research.

ATM and BR - thanks for all the info.

DS was fine when he came out of school today and said he'd had a good day. But he tells me that the boy whose mouth he grabbed yesterday, asked him to do it to him again today so that he would get red carded again. DS said no - thank God! But he didn't go and tell the teacher and when I asked him why, he just looks blankly at me.

He had this rash around his mouth about 2-3 motnhs ago because he was always licking his lips and fingers. He has started doing it again and the rash is coming back.

Also he has started getting really worked up when he gest told off - just a change in tone. He was squeezing his nose this morning to 'punish himself'! I never punish him myself so it really is upsetting to see him down on himself.

However, he says he's happy at school and it certainly is a happy environment. I just think things are affecting him in ways he can't express.

It is so isolating as he screams if I stop to chat to other mums in the playground, so I end up not bothering to talk to anyone. Some friends were sat on the field by school today after school and I wouldn't ever go over with my two as I think DS will just get stressed out.

I have only told one mum at the school about it all as I fear people will just judge him

Debs, can't give advice on this one I'm afraid, but just wanted to say I feel for you and it must be awful to see him do this. DS1 hits his head sometimes but never hard enough to hurt himself.

I understand your reticence at going over to people, but IMO you should just go over there. If they judge then they're not the sort of people that you or your DS need to associate with.

If you feel something needs to be said then I would just tell them his brain is wired a little different and that's why his behaviour can be a bit unusual. If they can't cope with it that's their problem not yours. But as I said, this is only my opinion and I am quite bloody minded.

I know some children find it useful to have something they can twiddle or play with to help them. Had some info on this from NAS. Do you think this might help him?

Hope he has a good day today.

BR

Thanks BR.

I spoke to the teacher at the start of class today as DS had said he wanted to have the option of staying in and drawing at playtime if he felt like it.

It's clear that they haven't thought this through at all. Because DS functions so well in other respects, school work, not being too shy in class, I feel they think I'm probably a bit bonkers. I mentioned AS today to his teacher who didn't know what to say.

Also, when I said he was well behaved at home and didn't do the 'rough and tumble', she said 'yes he is quite well-behaved'. They have never spoken about any behaviour issues to me though.

I told the teacher this morning that he needed an 'out' during playtime. He needed to know he didn't have to play with people he didn't want to.

He can look like he's enjoying himself when he's not. He came out running and joking with one of the boys on Friday and then it got physical and I could see him panicking, so I stepped in to intervene.

Does any of this make sense? In my mind, he tries to join in and then doesn't know how to extricate himself. But maybe I'm kidding myself and he's just likes hitting out?