DS ' nursery think ds might need statementing when he starts reception! Not sure...

[mysonben]

DH and i have already talked about this and decided that considering ds ( verbal dx by a paed.)'s asd is relatively mild with regards to behaviours, sensory issues, and he not totally unsociable , i mean he can fonction relatively well at nursery, the main issue being his speech delay (SLI)for which he sees a salt.
But the nursery staff reckons he might find it hard at reception (in september 2010) because he is hard to engage in activities that isn't much of his interests, he doesn't focus well on what he is supposed to be doing, he stares into space a lot,... The nursery proposes that we wait up until xmas before deciding if he needs a statement or not.

Would you listen to the nursery and senco recommendations ? Or should we follow with our decision of not getting a formal dx and no statement neither.

Hi Mysonben

Your last post said it all

Quote "It's just a bit frustrating when all the people involved all agree that yes ds is not 'average', but don't all share the same opinions as to what is wrong or where the problem comes from, iyswim? "

And that's exactly why i said last night that you should seek a Statement. All the people involved would then have to put their thoughts in writing and that would lead to a full identification of all his problems, coupled with an assessment of what support should be delivered and (if written into a Statement it would be legally binding on the LEA to deliver it).

I really do wish you and the others that have not yet taken this step the very best of luck in trying to obtain suffieicent support and understanding in the educational setting.

Ultimately, regardless of your wishes or those of your DH, if the school consider they cannot provide sufficient support from within their delegated funding and that he would benefit from a Statement, then the decision will be taken out of your hands and school will apply for a Statement itself.

Well, that's the theory - but as I mentioned before many LEAs do not encourage applications from schools so schools can be reluctant to apply and your child could be left struggling unsupported - that's what you need to be very wary of. Don't think that just because school doesn't apply then a Statement is not needed.

Yes my own experiences have very much coloured my views on this subject. I'd have bitten off the hand that offered an early dx for my son. You wouldn't refuse a plaster cast for a child with a broken leg - why refuse to seek the help a Statement coudl deliver for a child with a 'hidden' problem.

Best wishes

The EP does various tests and compares your child with 100 of his peers. It is a long time since my daughter had this initial assessment but the EP showed some pictures etc and she had to describe them, that kind of thing.

Obtaining a statement can be a long process and having lots of time to get independent advice on it is vital IME.

WetAugust, it is such a minefield for parents. Some HTs give out such crap advice to parents with regard to their rights. My friend has a child who is now being assessed in year7 but who has missed out on so much help.

Have people found that standardised tests give them a fuller or more accurate insight into their child than more informal assessments? My SALT is not interested at all in doing standardised language tests - she sees them as something you do in order to tick the boxes for a statement, not something she does in order to learn about the child. I dont' agree with her on everything but she conviced me on this one. She explained that on the one hand the tests don't reflect the difficulties capturing fast informal speech which makes the "result" artificially high in one way; yet on the other hand they follow a rigid order that you cannot deviate from so the child gets bored and underperforms on the more formal language elements because they are tired of looking at the pictures so the result is artificially "low" in another way.

I don't think the formal tests give you any fantastic insight into your own child but are a necessary evil for ultimately getting a child the help they need.

I really fear for children (and parents) in the future if all LEAs continue with devolving the SEN budgets directly to the schools and trying to abolish statements. I really wouldn't have confidence that schools would manage this correctly.

that sounds about how my salt put it. A necessary evil to get a statement. Not necessary at all for gauging the language level if you are an experienced specialist SALT.

I can't comment on ed psych or OT tests though.

My DS had formal tests for both receptive/expressive language, and for OT. The SALT one merely showed that he was completely within range for his age, although I do agree with lingle that the test is probably one of those that can trigger 'artificial' results. DS probably quite enjoyed that particular test and therefore scored well on it . Although having said that he genuinely doesn't have a language problem and we would agree with that, the comment the SALT made was that his skills 'can be functionally reduced by issues with concentration' or something like that, and we would agree with that too!

The OT one was however really useful for us because it assessed both his visual processing skills and motor co-ordination skills and absolutely highlighted the issues we'd already suspected, therefore triggering the help. For example for visual processing (i.e. ability to look at something and take information in and describe it etc) he was on the 87th%ile. For motor co-ordination (i.e. ability to actually copy something down) he was below the 1st%ile. Hence the OT sessions he was then booked on to.

I can't comment on ed psych because he hasn't been assessed by them yet but would imagine the assessments would be along similar lines...

The formal tests that a EP can conduct do actually give you a very good insight into your child's strengths and weaknesses. They also reveal whether your child's results follow the sort of recognised profiles for certain condiations such as ASD. For instance my son scored very highly on numeracy, language, spelling, systemising etc but when it came to cognitive tests his score was low. That followed the typical Aspergers profile and enabled us to recognise that he would need proactive teaching of cognitive skills.

The formal tests that a EP can conduct do actually give you a very good insight into your child's strengths and weaknesses. They also reveal whether your child's results follow the sort of recognised profiles for certain condiations such as ASD. For instance my son scored very highly on numeracy, language, spelling, systemising etc but when it came to cognitive tests his score was low. That followed the typical Aspergers profile and enabled us to recognise that he would need proactive teaching of cognitive skills.

Interesting. Do you know what kind of cognitive skills.
We haven't seen an ed.psych.

I wholeheartedly agree with your SALT being dubious about the value of formal assessments. In my DS's case I think they artificially boost his scores; DS is very visual, so loves looking at pictures. On one assessment last year, the SALT got through it in one session - which was unusual, as kids normally need two sessions as they get understandably get fed up! I have a problem with the use of pictures in general for asessing language - as day to day conversation, and I imagine as kids get older, teaching, isn't going to have that visual support

Lingle - Wechsler is one of the tests that Ed pyschs can use. A lot of Ed Pyschs employed by the LEA only run half the test (if any formal test at all). We paid a private Ed Pysch to conduct this and many other tests.

well from reading your recent post with your ds and sensory issues a statement would enable extra help at school for the TA to recognise his sensory needs and act accordingly i think from other posts you have done about your ds it definitely would benefit you to get formal dx and a statement his needs are not mild in some areas and he will need extra help and would be a shame for him to go in without the understanding and extra help for his needs

my ds is awaiting ot test but on SALT test he was within range for understanding speech communication skills are delayed and behind peers, can be unintelligible due to lack of speech sounds and feel he would not reach curriculum and as peers progress and language expectations do he will fall behind

our ed psych was useless

I am a former reception teacher, deputy head and SENCO.

I really would recommend seeking a statement as soon as possible. As many others have said, the transition to school can be challenging for many children, but I can only imagine what it would be like for a child who finds social engagement difficult and who's language skills will not allow him to express his needs, concerns or wishes.

The Autumn term is the longest term - it's 1/3 of his Reception year. I would absolutely recommmend that you ask the nursery staff to start the process immediately, or you apply to the LEA yourself. Acquiring a statement can be a very long, drawn out process.

What arrangements have the school and nursery put in place to support his transition. Ideally, he should have someone with him from nursery for the first few weeks at least.

Similar profile to Littlefish here, I agree totally with Littlefish's advice.

The sooner the better as Statements can take a long time to achieve. The school will then need to source the right person to work with your child. In our LEA a panel makes a decision on the level of need on consideration of the evidence presented.

The sooner he gets the support, the better for him.

Total - yes the whole bloody problem is that people don't show them an unchanging picture of what's being discussed!

Total have you ever applied for a statement or did the lack of ASD diagnosis make it too hard to get?

lingle - I never applied in the end, because neither school nor ed psych nor even private SALT thought he would need one, so I didn't want to go down the road of shelling out for private ed psych report that might not have helped anyway. The lack of DX of course didn't help. I get the impression that my LEA is spectacularly tightfisted skint pressured. Statements seem to be rare as rocking horse poo round here - DS's school only has one or two statemented kids, another local school I looked round has none.

DS has another year at nursery , he doesn't start reception until sep.2010 due to him being born in november.
Nothing is in place as of yet with regards to transition at school.
I spoke to the nursery manageress on friday about statement and E.P.
She said SENCO wants EP to assess ds as it was difficult foe senco to get the whole picture on ds and some his behaviours..., also senco gave nursery staff instructions regarding ds 'stuggles to understand what's happening plus some activities , and the manageress says he needs 1 to 1 support and they need extra funding for that. She also pointed out we were"lucky" to be referred to EP, as she has seen children before struggle and being refused assessment.!!!???
So we will go along with it, if they all feel ds needs extra help then oviously his problems are not that mild while at nursery, DH and i have now taken on board that he has different behaviours and needs according to his environment (at home his difficulties appear milder).

I checked out the infant school ds will be attending and i was surprised to discover that a massive 12% of the pupils have SN!!!

It seems a lot , doesn't it? The school has a good SN ppolicy in place , which is reassuring.

Hi mysonben

Twelve percent eh - my son's school is 20% SEN but numbers are irrelevant really. Its what the school actually does to help these children with their additional needs that matters.

I would advise you to find out exactly what that policy of theirs is because it actually may be all fine words and IEPs (Individual Educational Plans) but no real action. It sounds to me like many of those children are either on School Action and or School Action Plus. Neither of these really amount to all that much in the great educational scheme of things. Anything other than a Statement is not legally binding either.

You write that nothing is in place as of yet with regards to transition at school. I warn you now there won't be anything much worth writing home about unless you get yourself into gear!!!. Am sorry to sound so direct here and bloody minded but you cannot leave this solely to them. Keeping asking them questions and keep up to date with what they are doing. You need the EP on side as well and once DS has been assessed you need to meet with the EP as well. She may well recommend to you verbally that your DS is statemented. The nursery would not be getting the EP in unless it was warranted.

DS is used to things at home and you can both accommodate him. It won't be like that at school though.

If you request a statutory assessment you as parents have far more power than school or nursery ever would in this situation. You can appeal in the event the LEA say no (this is not a right accorded to schools).

Am really glad that SENCO and nursery are on your side but you're also going to have to keep on top of it. That remaining year will go very fast and before you know it DS will be in Reception.

I completely agree with what Attila has said, particularly the

"You write that nothing is in place as of yet with regards to transition at school. I warn you now there won't be anything much worth writing home about unless you get yourself into gear!!!. Am sorry to sound so direct here and bloody minded grin but you cannot leave this solely to them."

It really will be down to you, I'm afraid, to keep pushing for what your ds needs.

And also, just to make you feel better, at the school where I teach, which is a mainstream state school, 64% of the children have SEN.

I think the national average is about 8%, so your ds's school is just above the national average.

"So we will go along with it, if they all feel ds needs extra help then oviously his problems are not that mild while at nursery, DH and i have now taken on board that he has different behaviours and needs according to his environment (at home his difficulties appear milder)."

Well done you.

I too find this a really difficult period because of the language delay. You just don't know whether the child unveiled by speech development will still have serious social communication problems.

And an ASD dx might seem "wrong" for home (I was ganged up on again today by "friends" watching DS2 play a delightful game of musical chairs at a party telling me to ignore all those professionals....grrr)but could be useful for school.

My DS2's nursery is in the room next to the reception classroom and the nursery manager is a part of the foundation stage team so if any school ought to be able to manage a transition, it's mine. We are suddenly getting somewhere on the ability to answer questions and that could change everything.....

I should have added by the way that nursery's opinion is a powerful factor here isn't it?

Yep Lingle, nursery 's opinion is a powerful factor i agree.
They do see our dc in a way we don't, for a start their judgment isn't impaired by the fear of admiting to ourselves that there is "something wrong" with our dc.

We had today yet another classic example of ds'reluctance/inabilty to interact with his peers. We were taking a nice walk and ds was playing his new found game of "what's that colour mummy?" for every single car he could spot (after 10 mins. it was getting rather annoying ), then this little boy about ds'age comes over and several times tried to engage friendly contact with ds who did notice him but chose to ignore him and carried on his constant car colours questioning!