speech delay and learning to read/write

[zebramummy]

not sure whether to post here or in an education forum (so will post to both) but my son (age 3, nearly 4, bilingual) has had speech delay but is now rapidly closing the gap. i have heard that around 70 percent of children who have had this delay go onto develop problems with literacy. i was just wondering if this was true and whether there are any early signs to indicate that they may need extra help. ds has always had an insatiable appetite for words, books, songs and poems - a bit like described on some of the recent threads on this forum. he will also act out scenes from books and derives a huge amount of enjoyment from them - even when he was stuck on single words from age 1-3 he would always finish off the lastr word and recognise and treasure his books. he knows the alphabet and is really into sounds 'what sould does that make? 'i found a sound' but gets frustrated by the mention of phonics - 'no phonics again!!!' can be heard from several houses away IMO! he recognises his name but not consistently and enjoys art although his mark making is not as developed as some of his peers. does tany of this indicate that he may be ok with picking up the necesssary skills? also, is there a particular approach best suited to children who have had a delay? i have had a look at the usual suspects - phonics-based schemes (yawn!!!), headsprout (too computerised for us) and i am still not sure - i am leaning towards sight reading schemes as it was the way i would have learnt to read (i was reading confidently at three). i worry about him being left behind esp as we live in a part of london with huge class sizes and loads of non-english speakers so i want to give him a headstart because i dont have much faith in the school (despite its outstanding ofsted rating, there is a large value added element imo). your opinions would be most valued

Oh yes probably moondog - she wrote a few books around that time on teaching language as well. The program itself is brilliance - ds1 can access it with bugger all language - and it is working, he is 'getting' it. His behaviour in sessions is a problem though - I think he would have done far better with it 5 years ago. I am hoping it will give him enough to make some language strides. He has - we actually had a conversation today - and we have a communication method we use now where I run through options tapping in various positions as I speak, and he taps on top of the 'correct' option (if that makes sense) and I think that sort of thing would have been impossible until fairly recently. He can also navigate YouTube completely independently and is getting to the stage where he can search (using typing) alone. (all brand brand new & way above his apparent level of functioning).

Incidentally have you seen Proloquo2go (on my website if not- fabulous. We had an ipod touch anyway and ds1 picked it up surprisingly quickly given his dyspraxia (helped that the touch has youtube as well). So cheap compared to other options and very powerful and user friendly.

That's interesting.
Yes, I have indeed read your blog with great interest, in partic Proloquo2 review.I have laso passed blog on as a link to fellow SALTs and colleagues at uni as I think it is fab.

Just back from ABAI conference in Arizona where I attended a workshop on Tagteach which I am convinced has huge potential. We are setting up some MSc research projects on it but in meantime using it ourselves with amazing results.

(Skinner's daughter, Julie Vargas, an academic in her own right is involved.I met her and discussed it extensively with her.How cool is that? )

saintly wheres best place to ge that book have tried norma sites, as im intrested on how on earth ds can learn to read when hes non verbal and how they can test it.

but he is obviously intrested as he enjoys books being read to him.They reckon his understanding is 1-2 key word level

We been playing with the itouch and proloquo as well and ds seems to be grasping the idea anything computer realted he loves

Phoenix - I've written very briefly about it before on my blog. Marion Blank's literacy program is only available through her and is quite a bit more expensive than a book unfortunately. However she has written a book about literacy which I've put in my store - you need to go to typing and FC and then go to the second page. This is aimed at NT children but is interesting in that it breaks down everything you need to be able to do to successfully read and write.

Moondog- I had a look at Tagteach when you recommended it before and thought it looked very interesting and of course Karen Pryor is the godess of reinforcement. It's funny because I've just started horse riding again and my instructor talks a lot about horse training and it is all very very familiar.

I do love the whole concept behind proloquo2go. The idea of making it affordable and available on a mass market device is just brilliant. There's a real sense of community as well and the developers are really listening to and engaging with users. Some of the other devices out there are so fantastic (I am quite in love with the tango) but so so so expensive that they are just out of reach. Proloquo2go is so customisable that you can make it as complicated or simple as you need.

Moondog, DD is just 5. She really can't cope with a mouse at all. What we've done in the past is that she will point with her finger and I will then click where she points (so if she gets it wrong that's reflected in the click IYSWIM). The problem for her is the auditory processing skills required by the program. There's one bit where you listen to a sound, then listen to three "robots" make the same sound. Then follows the instruction "click on the friend that made the sound that you did"
This is just a level of language she can't "get". If I ask her to click on the robot that made the SAME sound as her she can sometimes get it (50%) but it feels like "cheating" for me to rephrase everything, and she really struggles to follow the electronic voice. Even on the earlier ones, I often have to repeat the instruction back to her before she can follow it. She's only just starting to learn that a disembodied voice on the computer might be telling her something worth knowing. Think she learns much better from a real person!
TBH I'd like to teach her to read, and we're slowly working our way through things, but she has another whole year of maternelle school before she starts primary so it doesn't seem necessary to push it. At the moment we're just trying to work on communication generally - i.e. the "need" to communicate things. She just doesn't realise that the rest of us don't "know" what she knows, and that she has to tell us. If anyone has any brilliant ideas on developing a sense of self and other, I'd love to hear them
(Sorry, Zebra, this is not terribly relevant to your post). BTW, what is your DS's other language? Is it your mother tongue? I've always heard it can be really good to teach bilingual kids to read in both languages, which is why I'd like to give DD a head start in English before she learns in French.

MrsT - thanks for reminding me about Marion Blank. You wrote about her programme a while ago, but at that point, i think dd1 didn't fit the criteria (too young), but now she does. If you don't mind me asking, what sort of ball park figure would we be looking at for the literacy programme?

I think dd1 would get on well with it, form the little I have read, and she ticks the general criteria (compliance for at least 10 mins, age and non-agressive).

Will talk to dh about it when our paths next cross...

BriocheDoree have you see the touch screens that clip onto regular computers? We had one for ds1 for a while and it works well enough and is reasonably cheap. I've added one to my store (or google magic touch - I know you're not in the UK but there must be something similar in France).

I found the language level & understanding needed by Headsprout too high as well. Most of ds1's learning to read has consisted of learning to scan from left to right and then matching words whilst working on language.

As for sense of self - Donna Williams writes a lot about that. I think ds1's biggest step in developing a sense of self came when he learned to imitate. Suddenly- overnight - he understood how others in the world related to him. Before that anything anyone else did was meaningless. He is now exploring himself in mirrors and I leave him to do that without interference (on Donna William's advice). I just make sure there are mirrors around. I imagine this is doing something to sense of self too.

silverfrog I'm not sure because we bought it when the dollar was weak (almost 2 dollars to a £ at the time). Obviously now it will be almost double the cost. A few thousand. I think what you get for the price is her expertise - and she really does understand what is needed to get non-verbal kids reading/writing and her program does not initially require language at all which is a huge plus. It does need pretty compliant behaviour though - she is very clear about that and assesses it before you start. Unfortunately ds1's behaviour has deteriorated with increasing awareness and I think for him to really be completely successful on the program he needs to learn to behave better. Whether he will or not..... I don't know. He still makes progress, but I can see it would be much more if he was more open to being taught. Which is slightly frustrating.

brioche - when I first did the Headsprout demo with DS I ended up doing the clicking and in some cases interpreting the instruction - then as time went on I gradually faded out my assistance as he got the hang of it. I realise what you say re:instructions/auditory processing etc - but I think that is more of a reason to stick with it, so that your DD gets more practice at areas she finds difficult.

thanks, MrsT.

dd1 is compliant enough if it interests her - same old story, really , although she can be resistant to learning too. it can be a matter of catching her when she doesn't realise she's learning anything!

Will chat to dh and see what he thinks, and email for more info.

Ooh, yes, DD loves mirrors! When she goes to her SALT, we have to hide all the mirrors before we start or we will get nothing out of her.
I've seen the touch screen things - unfortunately not many compatible with our very old macintosh (actually, getting to the stage where not much is compatible with our computer - it's older than DD!) Was going to buy a new laptop this year and then the car's brakes went, you know how it is...
Thanks, Total, will give Headsprout another go. Actually, that Marion Blank book also looks pretty interesting. Will add it to the list of books to buy when I'm feeling less skint!

5 is still pretty young.
It would work fine with a touch screen but for my research we managed to move a child with quite pronounced motor difficulties onto a mouse, or rather onto a mouse (to move arrow) and a separate switch to click (so using one for each hand.)

Chuffed to bits with how well it has worked.

With other kids, we have pulled out certain key parts and worked on them a table top activities as they have been complex

eg 'Click on who (out of 3) said it like you did'

Also an activity where different words are presented and kid to click on the word when it is the target one but if it is not, the kid to click on an arrow. Pretty hard, but we worked on it with TAG on a table top and blimey! He's got it!

Amazing to see how TAG helped him in a way that additional language couldn't.He just got completely overloaded.

Thanks, Moondog. Table top is a great idea. Don't use any specific "method" with DD but I do have ways of making her work on stuff like this and she can respond pretty well if she's in the zone! Will look into the TAG stuff as well as at first glance it looks interesting...

Also, oddly, DD doesn't have motor difficulties. I think the problem with the mouse is actually more to do with our desk setup. She really needs a laptop at a low desk. I've applied for funding but they always take months here to agree to anything!!

Thanks saintly will look ino getting it more to add to my library.

And computers are dfintley ds way forward am looking at getting him one tthats only for him

just looked at headsprouts and think its something that ds could eventually move on to ,he strugles with mouse and holding clicks down but we have found a mouse that he can click and will hold it down till he releases it.

just feel that people are to quick to write of that becaus ehe cant talk he wont be able to learn to read but im sure he will just not out loud

Very interesting posts as usual ladies, I am kicking myself a bit for not going with headsprout earlier, `i'm not sure if it will be the right thing for DS2 now as his reading has come on a lot using Toe by Toe, is it more suitable for beginners or can it be useful for readers who want to improve fluency (DS2 can manage quite long words but is very slow and mechanical).

I am also worried about the accent problem, DS2 has some problems discriminating between some sounds (mainly vowel blends and some consonants eg. "f" and "th" and "v" etc.), he already has an unusual accent (a bit "international school" IYKWIM), can children with reading difficulties swap between American and Scottish, for example,?

Have just finished reading a Karen Pryor book (Don't shoot the dog), made immediate sense to me, positive reinforcement is going to be a big part of our family life from now on, so simple yet effective, have even bought a clicker and am working out how to use it in the best way, so far have trained DS3 how to wipe his own bottom but I am struggling a bit with how to use the technique to improve DS1 & ds2's social interactions, being audibly clicked or praised in front of others when you are very, very shy is torture!

Toe by Toe looks ok. What bothers me is there are grammatical errors in the webiste and no refernece ot proper research.

Wiggly, those sounds are commonly moxed up anyway.Accent thing not an issue that concerns me as a salt.

You need to go very carefully with a clicker (or TAG as we call it to distinguish from clicker training for dog).You are right to be concerned about using it in public with shy kids.

Have a look at the TAGteach website (link below in one of my posts) for more ideas.

Would point you people whose kids are having trouble with mouses and switches in directoni of fab company Inclusive Technology who specialise in just this field.
Order one of theri catalogues or better still, go on one of their free information days (follow link to 'Training and Information' or something similar on site)

They are brilliant and can offer advise over the phone for suitable products for exactly the things you are talknig about.

For fluency (vital) woprk, we use precisionteaching.pbworks.com/SAFMEDS SAFMEDS, an aspect of Precision Teaching.

I'm not using the clicker with my older ASD kids at all, just with NT DS3 for fun mainly for things like crossing the road safely and taking his plate through to the kitchen, just a novelty to have a change from nagging (we are also thinking about getting a dog and so I am practising!) with the older boys I am basically just praising appropriate behaviour more and trying to be less shouty about bad behaviour. I won't try and devise "training programs" for them until I have really worked out aims and objectives and fully understand the methods.

Toe by Toe is working for us mainly because of the small chunks the work is broken down into, the simple format and the sheer repetition, it is a slog though and I am aware that it is not perfect. DS2 had such an entrenched habit of guessing words that the use of nonsense words in Toe by Toe forced him to break each word up and read then blend the syllables, it worked well for him, it is also cheap which having had a run in with the Dore program (before I was wiser and better informed) was important at the time. Headsprout does look very good though, DS3 loves doing the demo pages.

I looked at that precisionteaching link before and found it a little hard to get my head round (I think it was the info about charting progress that scared me off, I have a Masters degree but it is in Fine Art!). Will read it all again after understanding the Karen Prior book.

DH is a computer animator, if you ever devise your own program Moondog he could do the fun animations for you .

PS. the accent thing does not bother me and I know that SALTs aren't elocution teachers, I am probably overthinking about potential confusion for DS learning sounds in different accents.

Oh yes, SAFMEDS is quite simple isn't it, I think DS2 and I could manage that.

Hey Wiggly, I may well hold you to that!
We are looking for animators to devise our own programme.
I could help you chart and do other stuff in return. Whaddya say???
If I can chart, anyone can. I'm a right old hippy really.

The things you are doing with the TAG (the word 'clicker' freaks people out we find!) sound great. As the TAGteach lot say 'Don't nag, tag!' and it certainly seems that you have that clearly sussed.

I'm using it with my kids for eating with the mouth closed. Has been effective in a few days in a way that years of nagging hasn't. If you tell me what your email is,I can send you some great slides from the training day I attended.

Hmm, wonder if it would work to get DD to eat with a spoon (she can, but she struggles, so tends to give up and start eating with her fingers again...)
Wiggly, DD works with people with all sorts of different accents (home counties English and US English) and is also at French school where NOBODY pronounces her name correctly, and mostly it just seems to amuse her! She's a great mimic (as so many of these kids are) and does some great impressions of the French kids trying to speak to her in English.

Although the US American one has learnt to ask her if she wants to go to the toilet, not the "bathroom".