SALTS and friendly language people: Your tips for teaching object functions and categories please! (receptive speech focussed)

[lingle]

DS2 (3.8, receptive language delay) can now answer the following kinds of questions:

1. "where's DS1?" - answer, "in the sitting room". He has also started to ask "where's mummy?"

1. "what's that?" - pointing to an object or an object in a picture.

1. "do you want X or Y?" "what's your best? X or Y?" (ie which do you prefer?)

He has the following further skills: can carry out commands like "Simon says crawl backwards then jump!" "Simon says kiss the curtain then touch your tummy!" (2-step command with an element of dicrimination in at least one of the steps). He will attempt to process 3-step commands with no discriminations within steps - it's so cute to see him thinking about it. He understands opposites (fascinated by naming the hot and cold taps), finds negatives easy (spontaneously points out that a picture of a cat has "no whiskers!"). He spontaneously attempts to tell me what happened at nursery (it's incomprehensible but sometimes the staff can translate it into "I sat on the ice-cream table!").

I think we are "in the zone" for categories. He spontaneously points out that "mummy's a lady, daddy's a man"- we did not teach him this.
I also think we are in the zone for object functions - DH has had some success pointing at a completed jigsaw of an outdoor scene making requests like "point to the one that's flying".

There is so little material on teaching receptive speech - I would love DS2 to be able to answer questions like "which animal says moo?" (he can answer "what does a cow say?" but that's much much simpler) and "what's your teacher's name?"

Any guidance on suitable targets and techniques would, as ever, be greatly appreciated.

What Jux is describing sounds very much liker Discrete Trial Training. Maybe what you could do Lingle with the mickey taking, is be fun and cheeky in your response style but only tangibly reinforce the correct response. Mind you, he may find you "being fun" reinforcing, oooer.
It is interesting just how much a child, particularly with ASD, may know or be able to do but just won't unless prompted. You suddenly find out or rediscover that they do know or can do something but you haven't been working on it so they don't use it. Hope that makes sense?!

I think you're right Davros. I'm reinforcing him for giving the wrong answer!! ABA stuff is easy to read about and harder to get right.

Hmm, still think I need to go back to first principles here - I've got a child that likes to talk to me so I ought to be able to do this in a more naturalistic Hanen-ish way. The signs are he's more delayed than disordered so I just need to accelerate nature where I can.

I'm finding the ABLSS/VB approach ( in a lite form) very useful. DS1 is still in the foothills in that he can identify objects by type and colour - red deisel train, blue steam train, green electric train (no prizes for guessing motivation !) but when I look at the more advanced stages - answering why questions, it makes me feel a bit daunted so probably best not to look too far ahead and take it one step at a time.

I would be tempted to switch tactics for a bit, see if he would work on say putting pictures into different piles for animals and people, or sorting toys out (e.g. let's put all the farm animals on the farm) if he's getting a bit antsy about you asking questions.

cyber - I've had some useful worksheets from Hanen SALT to work on why and because with 2 pictures per exercise - so picture one has broken window, and picture two has ball going through window. Would something like that feel appropriate?

I like the idea of VB Lite. Let's brand ABA Lite now and get on Dragon's Den, or at least Genius. Lingle, it took me a couple of years running a fulltime ABA program to understany anything! But once I'd got the principles I can ABA out of anything.... If I want and a lot of the time I don't want any more. I've never understood why I find it so hard to do formal stuff myself rather than incidental, I suppose because I'm a parent and I want and enjoy a parent's version of DS. Even making schedules beats me, I just can't keep up or organise myself. When we did our program I didn't have to do it and could be given the incidental and admin stuff to do, that suited me.

yes, got the dvd, thanks - I did bump up the post to sya it had arrived, i am sure

yes, it does stop being funny, and as Davros says, the humpur aspect becomes reinforcing.

And I do so admire you fro doing all this - I am again with Davros on this - I want to be dd1's parent, not her ABA tutor. Admin and stuff fine, programme stuff not (and dd1 agrees with me - won't do a thing for me in a formal way, but we get along just fine as a family!)

Yes, there's something fundamentally distorting about turning into a "tutor".

Hmm, this category stuff started because DS2 said "mummy, you lady! daddy man!" all by his sweet self. He also spontaneously said "that's a clothes shop" when he had learnt about sausage shops, card shops, etc. Presumably ladies and men and shops are categories? If so, I think I need to follow his lead a bit more and talk about boys and girls. For us, it may not be right to start teaching words like "building" or "crockery" purely for the sake of making an exercise involving categories work!

Hanen, where is the bloody sequel when I need it?

definitely be guided by your ds.

As ever, if it is interesting to hiim, then results will follow (good old motivation factor!)

So yes, talk about shops, or boy and girls.

we took the TC approach to categories - sorting things into separate piles according to feature/function/class (depending on what we were teaching at that point).

this works for all sorts of naturalistic stuff - helping put shopping away (food/cleaning products/etc) unloading the dishwasher, sorting out the washing (into clolours/types) and of course the dreaded pairing socks.

bonus is that you get a slightly tidier house too, which is not something that happens often round here

Thanks Silver,

Yes, thanks for putting me straight. I was getting a bit too clever for my own good I think.

He learnt to talk using "It Takes Two to..." so that technique is clearly the one to continue. I did find a few tips in that book and will post them up here later.

I'm well aware that many of the things I do, like counting his vocabulary, are done entirely for my own benefit, not for his. Cheaper than therapy as I said before.

Have bookmarked thread, will read later - thanks everyone for all the useful info!

I hate the tutoring too. However, needs must at the moment while we are without SALT. ds had started to stall and I've realised that he needs quite regular and consistent input from me. I like the idea of VB/ABA lite, I must say..

Right, today's task is asking ds for both a red triangle and a yellow circle, for example. How many steps is that in the instruction? (am hopeless at calculating what's a 2 or 3 step command.)

We are also going through the "Mummy's a boy" - cue ds laughing like a drain - phase at the moment. He used to like to point at the snowman on his jigsaw and say "he's hot" too. Thankfully that particular "joke" seems to have run its course. I guess it represents a stage of development where they're gaining the realisation that things don't necessarily always have to be what they seem. Surely that's some very basic demonstration of flexibility of thought?

YES !! I am the world's worst tutor ! We had a great VB morning though - therapist here for an hour. Actually she said something that encouraged me a bit. She said that she was listening to me talking to DS1 and that he was answering 'Wh' questions well. 'What do you want to drink?, Where is your train? 'Where do you want to go?' Not Why yet but actually she is right, he does know 'Wh' questions ! How exciting and how stupid of me not to even notice... must be why I'm the world's worst tutor.

Cyber, that's very good. You are evidently the world's most modest tutor-mum

cyber - why and how are the last questions to come - they are harder than the other "wh" questions. And yes me 4/5/6 about hating the tutoring, but needs must..

so now I'm thinking I need to tutor more...!

Maybe that should be my question for the radio show tonight.

Hit a wall now, when I ask ds for a green triangle and a yellow circle, he tends just to give me the yellow circle. It's always the last instruction that he retains unless I really break it down and I know that's cheating.
Help! Is it just practice that will solve this or do I need another approach?

ah, that sounds like that Derbyshire language scheme stuff we looked at a while ago Kettle - do you remember the things about how many units of information per instruction? That was a two-step command with two elements of discrimination - a bit far?

Think so lingle. Was getting a bit carried away I think. Maybe I'll reduce it back to practising "bring me a fork and a plate" for a while.

I think we have another problem in that he'll mix up "where are we?" with "where are we going?". What's that about? Is it not understanding the "ing" ending? not understanding that "going" is still the main verb even though it's switched to the end of the sentence?

It's all so confusing!

reducedfat..... have you taught each item in isolation first?

Davros, yes, no problem with a red circle in isolation at all.

It's the combined instruction which he doesn't seem to be able to process. There's definitely still a delay there (used to be delay in all receptive language though)

And teaching the other one in isoltation? And, when you put them together, any prompting like tapping, positional (one nearer than the other), your eye gaze? Then fade the prompt plus, of course, reinforcement for the correct one. And when you first put them together even hand-over-hand prompt for the correct one plus big reinforcement? As I said before, I know they theory but get me to do it!!!

"I guess it represents a stage of development where they're gaining the realisation that things don't necessarily always have to be what they seem. Surely that's some very basic demonstration of flexibility of thought? "

Agreed that it's a strenth Kettle. I guess the key thing is recognising that the joke is one thing but the actions should be another. DS2 has been joking about pooing in various places but in fact has been doing a few more poos on the potty which I find encouraging. I think though that you can have this strength but still end up with severe autism if your language doesn't kick in, reading what other posters have said, but this goes back to the "there is no one autism" point.

Kettle on your expressive speech issues, has your DS2 started to tell you what's happened yet? We've had some tantalising glimmers....

DS1 can hand over a red card and a blue card (but no shapes yet). I think shapes as well as 'and' would be too hard for him at this stage. If I wasn't on the reduced fat/decaffeinated VB, I'd know the jargon - discrete trial whatever. If I ask him what he did in the day, he might say 'Pink doughnut' ( he did buy one) but that is about it.

I think shapes are NTage5-6 skill stuff anyway that we only use if it happens to be our LO's thing though. Wish DS2 didn't know triangle and knew "sticky" or "thirsty" instead.

What if animal/clothes/etc?

Nice he can start to tell you about his day.