Does anyone want to do a SN "book club" with me starting with Greenspan's "The Child with Special Needs?

[lingle]

Nikos linked to a great article by Greenspan in this thread of 21st April

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs/742398-Interesting-article-re-differentiating-asd-from-other-diso rders

Quite a few of us responded to the unusually positive and optimistic approach and to the idea of focussing on your child's unique profile, including his/her strengths as well as weaknesses. I think this positive approach has the potential to "reach" the "sceptical dads" as well (DH just called me with a very enthusiastic response).

I'm ordering Greenspan's book "The Child with Special Needs: Encouraging Intellectual and Emotional Growth" which seems to expand the ideas set out in the article.

Would anyone care to join me and have a more focussed discussion on the book together in, say, a few weeks? (allowing a bit of time for anyone ordering from the library)?

I've had the vague idea floating around for a while now that it would be good to try to organise a Floortime conference in the UK - MrsT and I discussed it last summer I think. If we get enough interest in the book discussion thread, maybe we should think about it, as a group? MrsT and I went on a Growing Minds course a few years ago which had been set up in this way - a local group had got sponsorship, organised the speakers etc.

Wouldn't it be great if we could get Stan?

Roll up, roll up! How is everyone getting on?

I've read the book and have read-read the first half in more detail. How about everyone else?

Shall we extend the discussion to his "Engaging Autism" book (and any other writings) too?

I've never been to a book club before. Can anyone dive in with initial comments?

Eek sorry, I think I should finish it over the weekend.

Hi, Please can I join I'm currently reading this - its very good and I would highly recommend it so far
I do have to keep re-reading bits as its usually way past my bedtime when I get chance to pick it up! Its also making me feel incredibly guilty in reading some of the case studies, I don't spend as much quality time as I would like with my DS1 and I am sure if I spent longer I would see a positive improvement in him.
Shall read more hopefully later!

Zebsmummy, That was the one doubt I had in my mind about the book - it's relentlessly positive but can you put it into practice unless you have (i)enough sleep and (ii) lots of time? I will also be interested to hear how mums of kids towards the moderate/severe end of the spectrum feel about it as most of the case studies seem to end up with the child on a par with or even outperforming his/her age peers which is obviously not always realistic.

Also Zebsmummy the book made me feel a bit of guilt/regret about how DS2 spent his time between 2.0 and 2.9. And usually I just "don't do" guilt so there's a bit of a health warning there for us all.

I'm sure it would all be teaching grandmother to suck eggs for you Riven but there was an interesting section in Greenspan about how you learn when you cannot move your head. D'ya want me to look it up& quote the bit?

my copy of Greenspan arrived this afternoon! Will have an early night (DH is away) and get stuck in. Oh what an exciting life I lead [happy].

will do riven bear with me as MIL has just arrived.

It's pages 187 onwards of "The Child with Special Needs" headed: "If your Child has motor challenges". It's within a chapter called "Floortime II: Two-way communication" (floortime I being establishing attention, engagement and intimacy)

I'll just do a quick touch-type of the bits that made me think "ooh I wonder what Riven would think?".

Motor challengse can compound a child's difficulty in fomring an internal map of the world. To form such a map, a child must coordinate motor movements with visual perceptions. To form a picture of his bedroom, for intsance, he watches his mother a she moves from spot to spot, following her with his eyes and remembernig how she and the room looked as she moved about. After several repetitions, the three-dimensional image of his room is locked in his mind. But i fa child can't turn his head or focus his eyes to follow his mother's movements, his ability to form taht image is hampered. Not only will he not remember what he saw: he's be unable even to collect the data to construct the image.
to understand what it feels like to have a motor problem, imagine wearing a suit that controls your movement. Each time you try to move in one direction, the suit moves you randomly in anotehr. You try as hard as you can to reach your mother , but you can't make yourself get close. Or, by the time you organise your movement, get your muscle tone up to support your moves, and decide which way to go, your mother has already moved in another direciton.
If your child has these compound challenges, work with him at close range using very simple movements [....stuff that follow is about getting the child to touch your nose....]
...instead of learning that he can signal his need for closeness, he learns taht closeness is randomly determined by someone else. .....[stuff about random movements that seem like hitting]
.....you face a dual task. You must work extra hard to read the intention behind your child's gestures, and you must create opportunities to build your child's initiative. Here are some ways to accomplish this task.

[Now there are some detailed paragraphs and I'm sure the copyright gods would forgive me if I photocopied the next bit and sent it to you - here are the headings]

1. Build a gestural vocabulary. Since your child may not be able to form the complex gestures she needs to tell you what she wants, help her develop alternative means of expressing herself. Take note of any spontaneous movement she makes when you show her something or do somethign she enjoys. Treat that movement as intentional by imitating it and highlighting it, even moving her hands or feet the next time to intensify the meaning of her actions. Then repeat the behaviour she desired and enjoyed. But wait until she makes a clear gesture indicating "more". She may blink her eyes, stick out her tongue, make a sound or wrinkle her nose when you point to teh options. ... Use the universal sign for "more" each time you give her more of what she wants.

[may be exeeding length here comes the next post]

1. Give your child choices

Once you've built a vocabulary for communicating intentions, create opportunities for your child to use it. Don't simply offer him cereal; show him several foods and let him pick. Don't assume he wants your help when he gets stuck; let him ask for help when he becomes frustrated. Don't hand him a toy the minutes it rolls beyond his reach; let him tell you if he wants it. In these ways you can encourage your child to take initiative rather than be passive. Try using pictures or empty cartons of what he wants...[stuff about pointing]

1. Respond to your child's gesture promptly

The best way to build your child's sense of power and initiative is to show her that her communiactions get results. As soon as she tells you she wants to be picked up, pick her up. As soon as she demonstrates a desire for closeness, say, I love you too and give her a hug. As soon as she shows she wants a particular item say, "do you want that spoon". You don't need to give it to her, but you do need to show her you understand he request. By doing so, you give her a sense of her power ni the world. You can challenge or play dumb once the gesture is well-established.

1. Be especially sensitive to your child's emotional state

Since your child may not be able to gesture his emotional needs, you'll need to look for subtle signs. Perhaps he seems unusually exerted or withdrawn. With time you'll come to recognise his signs. Then, before you act, ask him what he wants. Use the vocabulary you've estblished to let him tell you what he needs.

1. consider your child's intention

Guard against misinterpreting your chld's behaviour by considering the context in whcih it occurs. If youre playing warmly and she boxes your nose, it's probably safe to assume the blow was unintended. If you're engaged in a bedtime power struggle and the same thing happens, your child may be expressing some aggression. The challenge is to control your reactions until you've gauged your child's intent. Then react to her intention, not just to her behaviour."

That's it, excuse the typos and apologies if it is not really relevant.

Lingle - to answer your question addressed to parents of low/moderate functioning children: I find we have been stuck for ages at Stage 2 - Two Way Communication. There seems to me to be a HUGE gap between this level and the next, which involves symbolic and imaginative play (can't remember the title of the level and book is upstairs - too lazy to get it ).

DS2 can close many circles if we are playing a two person physical game. I was in the garden with him for half an hour this evening with pretty much unbroken verbal and gestural requests from him for various games, + responses to my initiations as well. At one point I extended the game by getting his 'Talking Button' (has me saying 'Mummy, where are you?' on it; I hide, he presses it and I jump out) and he was able to play like this for a while, also echoing the words. I then changed the recording two or three times for other requests and he went with it each time.

But as far as bridging the gap between this and the next level goes - I have little idea. If I get down on all fours he says 'horsie' and gets on my back, and we can have fun pretending to drive a car together and screech to a halt, but that's it. He's not interested in toys at all, only wants to play with people - although he does have a large teddy bear which he's just started cuddling and I'm trying to build imaginative play out of that. But it's so hard - I don't think he gets 'pretend' and until he does, the gap between Levels 2 and 3 seems very wide indeed.

Would be interesting to get yours and other people's views on this.

Will look forward to rereading those bits and talking about it Sphil.

Does he do functional play with toys yet? (pushing trains round a track?). I'm recalling from Hanen books that they said that came first before pretend play but maybe I've misremembered.....

Not really - the only play he does with toys is to push buttons if they speak or sing. He'll also operate sensory toys like fans, whistles, light toys etc. But he doesn't do much representational (?) play with toys that are mini versions of real things - a little bit of car pushing for a few seconds, and that's it. It's a real issue for us in fact - I think he has such problems with motor planning that he can't string together the actions needed to play in this way - whereas pushing a button is one single action. It makes it very difficult to introduce any play that is object based - it all has to be 'people games' (to use another Hanen term).

Hmm, just looked it up in "It Takes Two". Although they refer to "functional play"(which I think includes playing with those sensory toys and also the teddy), "constructive play" (playing with a plan in mind) and "pretend play" as "stages" they are not explicit about saying you have to be able to do one before the other. But I wonder if that's the problem?

It does say "Children start pretending when they learn that one thing can stand for another".

"More than Words" might say it in more detail but it is in the room where MIL is sleeping this week so can't go get it right now!

Iwearflairs - that is a good idea. I'm sure DS2 sees some toys as threatening. Just having them 'watch' (he also loves moonsand) is something I'll try. Thanks.

I've finished the book but will definitely need to read some parts again as there is so more information to digest.

I think I will try the toys watching idea kindly provided by Iwearflairs to try and get DS1 over his fear of puppets (which he has had since forever), as there were a few references to using one.

Sphil, this may be utter crap but we were at a farm yesterday and in the gift shop they had a range of toy animals, and when slight pressure is applied they do something e.g. squeeze the frog and its tongue rolls out. Would something like that appeal to your son? They were about £1 I think.

Lots of positives happening here as a result of following some of the advice in the book. Not sure I will ever manage to have the time to do as much floortime with DS1 as he probably needs which is down to circumstances (DS2). I know the book says to include siblings but he is not quite 2 and quite an unruly active child and their play quickly descends into manic running around/pushing shoving etc. DS2 rarely naps in the daytime so he always around so 1:1 time with DS1 doesn't happen either.

How's everyone else getting on?

Yes, DS2 does like that sort of thing - he had one of those frogs in his Xmas stocking - but he'll watch it for a few goes, then lose interest. It's sustaining any play with toys which is difficult. If anyone's got any ideas I'd be grateful!

I probably only manage about 30 mins a day Floortime during the week - far, far from ideal I know. Maybe a little bit more if you count incidental playing rather than planned sessions. I'm still doing a bit of ABA with him as well - about another 30 minutes. It's not a lot I know - but I have to give DS1 some time and then there's all the domestic stuff which has to be fitted in (not that I do a lot of that!) He watches far too much TV .

not -

We are getting good at pretending but Greenspan would say our dramas are limited. We went to the dentists yesterday and afterwards I sat him in the rocking chair, pushed him back and was the dentist counting his teeth. Then he did it for me (and with a lot less crying than at the real dentists LOL!).

He's had a couple of stroppy playdates where he won't share trains so I've tried making my trains bump into his trains on the track. We might be getting somewhere with this. Also, he now takes little animals to ride in his troublesome trucks and they get off at the station and go back to their houses or to the woods.

I think it would be really good if Greenspan went into more detail about what he sees as the prerequisites for being able to pretend. Also, some children develop well without pretending hardly at all (like my DS1 who's a bit of a policeman but very much "one of the boys" now) so there must be alternative developmental paths available.

I've had my MIL here combined with a busy work week and it has been really nice, to be frank, to spend a bit less time on DS2 floortime knowing someone else is doing it! (or at least providing valuable experiences).