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lingle and the paed. episode 2. in which lingle shares lots of mumsnet wisdom with the paed.

41 replies

lingle · 22/04/2009 18:27

Report on paed appointment for DS2 (3.8, receptive language delay +?).

Nursery originally asked me to refer DS2 at 3.0 in Sept 08 when he did not respond to his name and spoke echolalically. At Christmas (3.5) nursery teacher said responsive speech was greatly improved but she was very concerned that he would move away from activities when other children came along. I knew that since they implemented a visual timetable this issue had stopped and that they were much happier with him but even so I was surprised, when I picked up him this morning, that nursery teacher just said "I'm really happy with him".

DS2 has transformed again and again since Sept and is a lovely little man. The nursery teacher's remark left me feeling quite jolly and it was a nice environment at the hospital this time - toys instead of weighing scales.

Because I felt happy and proud of DS2 I was very unguarded and talked about two issues I'd not previously mentioned, which were his periodic "funny eyes" when running and also the fact that he dislikes wearing shorts, t-shirts and new shoes (forgot to mention haircuts).

Silly me, I was expecting paed and SALT to hear him talking and see him playing and say "wow, what a change since Christmas". Instead they looked at each other and said "hmm, yes, the traits are quite clear" and recommended we enter the diagnostic process. A little speech about "did I realise that DS2 is different?". DS2 was building and playing with a train track and the SALT kept altering the arrangement of the trains and making them go in different directions. He worked with her to build the track but politely removed the changes she had made. From this, she concluded that he is "operating to his own agenda" and "did not want her to join in". [hmmm] and [hmmm]. For me, no real "train boy" wants a random woman to keep interfering with the layout. I thought of Amber explaining that sometimes she is studying something in great detail and people come along and assume it is meaningless and she ought to be willing to change it as they wish......

Then there was a little spiel about how marvellous I am and that many families would be really struggling with a child with DS2's tendencies. All very nice to get compliments, especially with the effect DS2's homespun speech therapy needs are having on my career but Really? Is it that hard to turn on music for a fretful child, coax him into boxer shorts by explaining that the other pants are dirty, simplify your language, give him his preferred yellow plate, work on asking him not to screech his "no"s and spend lots of time playing Simon Says? I think not.

I asked what ratio of children entering the diagnostic process come out with an ASD diagnosis. Answer: 60%.
I asked what the benefits would be to us. I explained (and this is where I plagiarised you all shamelessly, so please feel free to ask for credits) that I was happy to treat him as if he has ASD and to accept help for his needs but that I do not see intervention and diagnostic as neutral events. I pointed out the inaccuracies in the Bradford Council support teacher's report and explained how I felt about these being on his record. I explained how other inaccuracies would probably make me feel defensive. I said that I saw our family unit happy and thriving, DS2 perhaps lucky in his lovely older brother and the compassionate mums of his peers who invite him round for tea, and a school he's already in where he has another year to go before starting the reception class.

To my pleasant surprise, they both took this extremely seriously and really thought about it. The paed said there are no interventions at home that would improve for having an ASD diagnosis. Her concern was that if school suddenly had a problem, they would not be able to receive the services of the Bradford LEA autism teaching team until he had a diagnosis. Also, there would not be funding for teachers to go on special courses for autistic children without a diagnosis.

However, the paed. went on to say that she agreed that the diagnostic process is disruptive to family life and stressful and that this needed to be weighed against the benefits of seeking diagnosis. I appreciated that she was realising I needed to feel in control and that ceding control by consenting to the diagnostic process might be counter-productive if it threw DH and me out of harmony and me through a crisis in my relationship with DS2. The speech therapist then did add that DS2's language is much much better than it was.

So we left it that I'll see paed. again in September and the speech therapist more regularly.

I mulled it over and decided to speak to the teachers at school: nursery, SENCO, reception and headmistress. But a friend who's a primary head said that I should remember that they have their own agenda too - anything that gives the school more resources is something that they'll want.

Time for that fish pie and a beer I think. Hope you're all having a good day.

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allytjd · 22/04/2009 18:57

Thanks for posting that Lingle, your experience is relevant to mine and reading your post feels like a good rehearsal for my next meeting with the Ed-physch (she is coming round to the house to try to persuade DH and i to go ahead with seeking a DX).
It can be very difficult to say no thank you when everyone else is pushing for a DX.

lingle · 22/04/2009 19:33

Yes, it's hard, because you know that you may be wrong, that behavioural issues may suddenly surface later, that you may have to go running back asking for a DX as others on this board have done. But you just have to do what seems right at the time.

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TotalChaos · 22/04/2009 19:53

well done for standing your corner, and glad you had some constructive discussion with the paed. v. interesting indeed to see that 60% statistic. I honestly don't know what I would do in your shoes re:DX.

TotalChaos · 22/04/2009 19:57

well done for standing your corner, and glad you had some constructive discussion with the paed. v. interesting indeed to see that 60% statistic. I honestly don't know what I would do in your shoes re:DX.

Barmymummy · 22/04/2009 20:09

Thats a great post as I have not seen anyone yet and gves me some insight as to what to expect. Totally agree about messing up the train track! DS would happily let me build him a new track but if a stranger came along and did it he probably would politely tell them to bugger off!!

Well done for you for standing your corner so well,xx

lingle · 22/04/2009 20:18

thanks that is appreciated. I swear I have no idea if I did the right thing or not and perhaps I never will.

I told them how I felt about the medical model they use with its emphasis on failure and deficit. They nodded and said they rely on the parents to paint a portrait of strengths.

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tclanger · 22/04/2009 20:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lingle · 22/04/2009 20:38

Thanks T. I was thinking of you and your history with M about the diagnosis issue. I will tell DH (!!!!!!) (perhaps a good idea at some point?!) then I think I need to ask for an appointment with school.

I think that if things change for the worse I'll just have to change tack. Seems like it's help in school that's going to be the big thing. I'll reconsider next January.

He's just become scared of dogs.... "don't eat DS2" he cried out after running away from one this afternoon. But on the other hand he's become willing to wear masks and do impressions in them.

I think a key thing for me is that he recognises all my emotions, can talk about and recognise happy/sad/cross/surprised/scared/silly and is empathetic to an age-appropriate degree (eg he was very concerned this evening when other children took his big brother's ball even though he never plays with it - was calling out "no that's DS1's ball". )

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TotalChaos · 22/04/2009 20:39

reading between the lines of what paed said, presumably the door would be open in September anyway to revisit the question of diagnosis. and between now and September you and school will continue working well together with him, which is the important thing.

tclanger · 22/04/2009 20:51

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kettlechip · 22/04/2009 21:06

hi lingle, been wondering about you today. You've done exactly what we did if that's any comfort. We accepted there may be a few mild traits with ds1 (he would probably have done the same with the trains tbh) but as everyone present at our TAC meeting (team around the child, all professionals involved with him basically) agreed that he would receive no extra help by being dxed, we decided against putting us all through the trauma.

Did you mention your ds1? Just wondering how they'd explain his transformation within a few years? Do you feel that he was very similar at the same age, and therefore would have possibly been given a dx which a few years later, bears no relevance to him..?

notfromaroundhere · 22/04/2009 21:19

Blimey, I hope you're enjoying a beer or two by now. It is of not help to you whatsover, but DS1 was DX with ASD in December and I am not sure it was the right thing to do.

Just a small thought, are there any local charities that help families with statementing etc? If there is may be worth speaking to them as the one near me tells a very different tale on the statementing situation than any of the Ed/Health Professionals I have met so far.

mumslife · 22/04/2009 21:33

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saintlydamemrsturnip · 22/04/2009 22:27

lingle - I've just recommended this elsewhere but you (and your dh) would probably enjoy it too unstrange minds

lingle · 22/04/2009 22:34

good luck with that meeting mumslife.

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tclanger · 22/04/2009 22:34

This reply has been deleted

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sc13 · 22/04/2009 22:42

Just read this (was still chasing you on the other thread) - am very impressed. Good on you to be able to stand for what you think is best for your family right now. Will keep you in mind as an example next week (eek)

lingle · 22/04/2009 22:44

thanks for the recommendation Mrs Turnip.

Yes Total, he starts reception in Sept 2010 so I basically said "talk to me next January".

Have told DH on the phone what I did. Needless to say he approves and wishes I had never gone to the appointment at all. A case of "If you can't see it, it can't see you"?

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saintlydamemrsturnip · 22/04/2009 22:47

I'm only actually half way through tclanger - but it's very interesting. There's another one by a british academic which is similar (more obviously about cultural construction of autism) Representing autism.

I've found myself nodding my head along to both books and muttering 'yes yes' - which probably looked a bit odd on the train - (although am only half way through both- doing simultaneous reading again- will review both when I finally finish).

nikos · 22/04/2009 22:58

Tclanger-click and bought it too . Have zero self control when it comes to autism and amazon. It's not real money though, is it?

saintlydamemrsturnip · 22/04/2009 23:00

oh I know that one too

At least it's easy to sell books on via amazon (or we would be drowned by now )

mumslife · 23/04/2009 15:35

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

moondog · 23/04/2009 18:58

Interesting post, Lingle. As I have said repeatedly on MN (and in RL) I do not think paeds. have much of use to say about behaviour/language/cognitive development. They are good at the physiological side of things but for other issues, I wouldn't pay too much attention.

Tendency in this field to pathologise behaviours that NT kids could 'get away' with, as outlined in your observations about the train.I see this all the time and am constantly pointing it out to people.

Balance is to acknowledge difficulties openly and honestly whilst also not assuming that they cannot be remedied because they are part of some nebulous 'condition' that is an integral part of the child (and by definition therefore, difficult to remedy). As you know I am a behaviourist and behaviousts reject labels for this reason.

I have rejected a diagnosis (it was a vague and useless one) for my own dd. 'Social and communication disorder' was mooted but in legal documents I have had it changed to 'ifficulties with communication and socialisation'. Wording barely differs but the implications and meaning do!

'The paed said there are no interventions at home that would improve for having an ASD diagnosis. Her concern was that if school suddenly had a problem, they would not be able to receive the services of the Bradford LEA autism teaching team until he had a diagnosis. Also, there would not be funding for teachers to go on special courses for autistic children without a diagnosis.'

First sentence is true. Second is dodgy (I'd ask to see the legislation-aren't you a lawyer? Third also dodgy.

Bog standard training isn't great in any case.
Most SALTs know little about ASD stuff and how to approach it.
ABA (led by certified behaviour analysis) is the most effective 'treatment' available for this population. No doubt about it. I have written a paper on it for my Trust. If you give me your e mail I can send it to you-includes most up to date refs. to best recent research.

FWIW, I will no longer countenance SALT
input with my own child (beyond what I do for her.) Only ABA.

lingle · 23/04/2009 19:03

Moondog, I love you thank you.
Here's the email [email protected].

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silverfrog · 23/04/2009 19:42

moondog, would you mind if I asked for a copy of that paper too? am about to embark on a fight to get ABA funding so any refs to up to date research would be most welcome.

silverfrog13@ gmail.com

many thanks.