DS2 showing "theory of mind"

[allytjd]

I have increasingly been feeling that DS2(who is suppossed to have AS) is understanding other peoples point of view etc. I promptly forget the examples of this when he has a review meeting etc. but he demonstrated it today in the shop: I was remarking that i was cold, DS3 kept repeating that he was boiling (despite being in short sleeves), I ignored him a bit as I was trying to think what to make for tea. DS2(who is 8) then interpreted, "He's saying he is boiling because he wants you to buy him an ice lolly Mum, I saw him looking at them when we walked past."

This is the kind of thing that makes me a bit dubious about his onnofficial DX (the SALT and ED-pysch say they think he has AS), he does has sensory issues, variable eye-contact and some repetitive behaviours and I can see why they think he has AS, but they never see him at his most natural... saw the SALT today for some help with his pronunciation, she hasn't seen him @ 18months and I got the distinct impression once again that she was underestimating both of us...sigh.
Never mind, progress is progress. What does everyone else think?

I Meant to put a "?" after "DS2 showing theory of mind in my thread title."

hi, it could well be that hes showing some theory of mind because children/adults at the end of the spectrum can show some i know i certainly can at times, or he could have been in a similar situation and remembered that your DS1 likes ice lollies and has connected what he was saying to the fact that he wants one?

I see what you mean Jenk, the difference this time was that he got the hint from DS3 and understood that DS3 was pretending to be too hot to get a lolly and also that I had NOT got DS3's hint (because i had not seen him looking at the lolly cabinet) and therefore needed DS2's help to understand what DS3 was going on about. It is certainly true that DS3 is a bit predictable in his demands when in the shop!

He has also made a few humourous remarks about his sometimes annoying older brother that show that he can predict DS1's probable reactions to things.

Does offering your Mum a bit of your Caramel easter egg because you remember that she likes it and you know that she doesn't have one count as theory of mind?

I'm doubting myself again now, has he just learned these things by imitation or repetition?

its very good that hes reading situations and understanding what his brother wants,people with AS spend quite a lot of time thinking things through and remember peoples reactions to situations,i know when i was younger (and still do now) i used to go over and over things people said and try to connect why they did and what their reactions meant.

with regards to the egg,then yes i would agree with the remembering that you like it,DS offered me one of his creme eggs (probably because he knows how much i like them!!), i wouldnt have thought my DS would have cared less if i had an egg or not!!

ill give you an example of how i struggle with theory of mind,

my sister phoned me last nite,she has just moved house,she said she was going to miss hells kitchen so i said dont you have a TV and she said yes but im knackered,i didnt reply and she said i think ill go to my friends to watch it.

afterwards when i thought about it i realised she was waiting for me to say oh come round here and watch it-which didnt occur to me, it also didnt occur to me that she was tired and prob didnt want to start fixing her TV at that time and just wanted to chill and come here for a bit, i felt very later when i realised.

but next time she mentions something along these lines ill know what she means!!

The severely autistic children I work with often show understanding of other minds. The tom tests done by baron cohen etc are about false beliefs and it's this in particular that children with autism can gave difficulty with (although some always pass the tests and language ability plays a role in pass & failure). In fact I know one child I'm working with so officially 'severe' passed the sally-Anne test with no problem.

Oh dear Jenk, I think i have made similar mistakes to the one you made with regards to your sister, an oft repeated phrase in our house is "please tell me what you want, I'm not a mind reader you know!".

I have been influenced by reading the link to the Stanley Greenspan article that was on here the other day, it has made me try to get to grips with understanding inference etc.

I don't suppose it matters in the end if my DS's learn how to understand people by study and application rather than by "instinct" as long as they make the effort (and are rewarded for their efforts!)

DS2's core language skills are advanced for his age so maybe that is helping him a bit.

Feel slightly deflated now but thanks for keeping me down to earth.

oh didn't mean to be deflating

It's good that he's doing what he's doing (I love it when my severely autistic son 'reads minds' or teases, or hides things - enough to be doing some research work on it). Do enjoy it!

Just remember ASD is not one thing - it's just a signpost to help that's needed. My son has much more in common with children with LD's than someone with say, AS- even though 'officially' they share a diagnosis.

But local authorities etc need something to work with, to categorise hence ASD. There's a great book on all of this:
unstrange minds It's about the autism diagnosis and the increase in cases and what it all means.

Thanks MrsT, that book looks right up my street.

I often get a bit excited when I think I've caught sight of the summit IYKWIM, when i find something that helps the DS's or I understand something i didn't get before, then the mist clears and i realise there is a lot further to go and i have to find more energy from somewhere.

oh I know what you mean.....