Echolalia

[Barmymummy]

My DS does this alot and I am wondering whether it is his way of learning/applying language or something I should be worried about iykwim.

He is 3.10 and is waiting for a referral to see a paed just to make sure he has no autism.

He didn's say his forst words until just after turned 2 and was 3 before he was properly making decent sentences so whilst he was definately slow in talking I do feel he has caught up well. Playschool have no trouble understanding him and he has a good vocab. It still doesn't flow naturally yet though and you can see he still has to think about what he wants to say iykwim. However! Alot of it is copied phrases from TV, books etc. To be fair to him I would say that 99% of it is approriate so for example yesterday he saw a huge tree and said "that is a biiiiig treeeee". Sounds fine to you but I know he has copied this straight off 'Super Why' and when asked "who says that?" he will say Super Why. If he says sorry for something he does it 'Robbie Rotten style' from LazyTown. If he sees his reflection in a mirror he will say "I can do a silly dance" whilst dancing, again copied from The Wiggles. The list goes on and on and he does that ALOT. He applies it to play and non play and uses alot of what he has heard in his 'imaginitive play' even though he can't actually make up his own situations. He sings alot a particular song off of 'Me Too'.

As I write he has just come up to me and said "mummy my tummy is all rumbly" (Peppa Pig quote) "Lets go and get something to eat" (Super Why). Do you see what I mean lol??!!

I have concerned that he shows awkwardness around peers his own age and quirky behaviour and put together with this echolalia it makes me more worried.

Just wondered if anyone else's little one does this? Thanks for reading,x

My little one was exactly like this. very clearly understandable, and appropriate phrases, but I could recognise large blocks of what he said as echolalia from TV, DVDs and books.
He was diagnosed with ASD at 5.

Try not to worry, but keep a list of all your concerns to discuss with the paed.

Sympathies, have two boys with receptive language delay, one resolved , one still behind. Both started combining words only around third birthday.
Does your DS do non-telly sentences as well? Can you give some examples?

Thanks for both your replies, WideMouthFrog could you tell me how old your little one is now and did the echolalia stop or does he still do it? How did he find school? My DS has been deferred until Jan 2010 but I am so worried about him as he is very shy/uncomfy in new or unfamiliar situations.

Lingle - yes he does have lots of his own sentences too. He can say things that he wants to say without copying. Examples so fat today are "Am I going to busy bees today mummy?" (playschool). I said Yes. He said "What day is it today?" I said Thursday. He said "Mrs King today" (lady who runs it on a Thursday), "I'm not having lunch there am I?" I said No, not today. He can say all sorts of stuff, erm other examples are:

Can I play in the sandpit? Has Daddy gone to work? I don't want to go to Sainsburys (PMSL!), All that sort of stuff. He has an older sister and I can see he struggles to answer her questions properly as does he with some we ask him.

Another thing he does is say the same thing at the same time. So for example, after coming out of busy bees he says "I had a great time at busy bees!" EVERY TIME said in exactly the same way.
When we have to leave somewhere he always says "We can back another day!" again always in the same way.

At the end of the day he obviously gets alot of comfort out of using the same words and phrases in the same way and I feel awful trying to get him to stop by suggesting other ways we could say the same thing iykwim.

I am not dealing with all this very well atm, am very very teary most of the time and it doesn't help that I have no def answers yet. I can handle him having quirks etc but I have no idea how his future will be and I think that is what is killing me slowly. Please tell me you have been through these emotions as I really am falling apart , Thanks,xxx

Yes, I have. In fact I think most of us have. It can affect every aspect of your life can't it?

Will post again later but am off to collect DS2 (3.6, receptive language delay) from pre-school.

You have found the right place here, you know. I've learnt more from this board than anywhere else.

Hello Barmymummy - my DS (3), who has speech delay and social skills delay and is up for assessment, also has a fair amount of echolalic speech. There was a thread here a while ago about echolalia with links to some useful articles, I'll try to find it for you. What I think is a positive is that your son obviously uses echolalia to communicate, and in 'appropriate' settings, and that he does have non-echolalic speech. There is a lot that can be done; we are (hopefully) starting a Hanen course next week, called 'More than words', which has a lot of good tips for parents on how to 'redirect' their children's repeated sentences.
It's not easy; I find MN a real lifeline.

Thank you, means so much to me.

Picked him up from playschool and was told that he had gone for a girl round the neck. I was so upset, burst into tears and felt really embarressed because I just couldn't stop.

Turns out that the little girl bless her was trying to play with him but was being quite overpowering and in his face a bit. He is uncertain what to do and when he gets anxious he reacts inappropriately.

The lady who runs it is great so wasn't a problem but I just came awy in floods of tears and wanted to run away....

Thank you TinyC, xxx

Ironic part is we are always having to remind him about personal space issues as he will go right up to kids faces and say hello or make a funny noise at them. Just hate to think of hurting someone else's little girl.

Yes, the non-echoing speech sounds great . A great base to build on.

Barmy, I appreciate you'll be developing your own "coping strategies" for all of this - but you should find that even though he doesn't have ASD the resources aimed primarily at kids with ASD are still incredibly useful. Nearly every child with problems understanding and interacting will have quite a lot in common with children with ASD (though it took me quite a long time to accept that - a bit of a psychological hoop to jump through!)so the ASD resources out there are fantastic.

I adore the Hanen organisation that SC13 mentions - the book of theirs that I used last year is not suitable for your son because his speech is too advanced -but I noticed that they published a new book recently - here it is:

www.hanen.org/web/Home/HanenPrograms/tabid/79/Talkability/Default.aspx

You'll see it's directly addressing social interactions. If it is anything like their other books, it will be well-written, non-frightening (the one I used didn't have any scary terms, milestone charts, negative scenarios etc and I cannot tell you what a difference that made to my ability to absorb the information in it), positive and full of good ideas to act on - and also eye-wateringly expensive though they do have a dealer in the UK that someone will point us to in a minute (think it's called winslow?). Maybe worth a try, and if you do get it please post a review as we are a virtual library on this board lol.

Barmymummy, seen you questions, but I am a bit tied up. I will post a full response later this evening. Don't want you to think i am ignoring you.

Oh thank you thank you, all of you! I walked to get my older DD from school with all this buzzing (as usual) round my mind and I felt better knowing I had somewhere to talk about it without people saying to me "oh don't worry" or "he'll be fine" etc etc which is of no use to me at all tbh!

That book looks wonderful, am going to see if I can scrape some pennies up to buy it. Take your point completely about non ADS kids benefitting from these books, though I do suspect he has mild ASD. The wait to see the paed is a killer isn't it?!

He is fine with kids on a 1:1 basis except for his quirky behaviour but he communicates ok and plays happily with them though he does find turn taking a bit tricky ;-) Its new, unfamiliar or busy places that freak him out and it is difficult to control him or make him feel safe. I am his safety blanket and though he hides behind me, clings to me and shouts at people to "go away" when they try to talk to him, I can get him to stay and take part in the end. When he starts school and he isn't allowed me to stay with him, he is truly going to freak out. Screaming, shouting etc and nothing will calm him down. Once he feels safe and happy there he will be OK but I don't know how he will transition from activities and classrooms etc even though he is fine transitioning here at home.

He has loads of non-echolaliac speech as I say so I think this is why I find it confusing that he relies on it iykwim!

Am sorry, I know I am rambling but have a million questions that no-one can answer, am just grateful for someone to listen to me warble on!

hi barmy mummy. your ds sounds almost exactly the same as mine, so i really sympathise with all the uncertainty and worry that you are feeling. we are also going to defer for a year and this has made a big difference to my stress levels!

my ds (3.4) also talks mainly in echolalic or comfort phrases that he has, although his expressive repertoire is widening to include more and more spontaneous phrases, though , as you say, these do sound stilted.

ds has a receptive language delay and has difficulty with questions, although he has started saying yes, which is making a big difference to the way he apporaches a question (previously just saying "no, not..." and repeating the question. he has also started asking questions for the first time, "what is it?" etc, so it seems he is gradually beginning to uderstand the function of a question.

you mentioned difficulties with transitions and i wondered if he has ever used a visual timetable. i was surprised that this worked so well for my ds because he is very verbal, but they do seem to provide a nice concrete way of explaining a change in activity whic helps to prevent distress.

hope you find it useful to talk with other mums. i've found this place to be of immense support when no-one else seemed to understand.

Sorry barmymummy, finally home from work so i can answer you about how my little one is now.

He is in Yr 1 and nearly 6. He does still use some echolalia but it is a lot less obvious, because now he is at school he is picking it up from sources I am probably unaware of. He still has certain 'set pieces' so to speak. e.g. he always says 'Have a nice day at work' as dad says goodbye. He always says 'What can I have to eat' rather than he is hungry, or asking for a specific food. he also mutters new words and phrases quietly to himself after hearing them. However his vocabulary and expressive language is good, so most would be unaware that he is doing this. His receptive language is weaker and he cannot follow multi-stage instructions even now.

I don't want to dwell on how he settled at school because we had a horrendous experience - no one had realised his needs before he started in reception. Much like your DS he was shy and awkward around his peers, though 1:1 he could interact reasonably well. School is a much more demanding environment though. You are not in this situation as you are already being referred, so if your DS is on the spectrum there will be time to prepare him for transition next January, and your paed will be able to advise you on this.

Would strongly recommend Ragged Robins suggestion of a visual timetable,worked a treat with ds (aged 4.3) but we ran into trouble when schedules changed so at the suggestion of the speech therapist introduced "oops cards" We use a card with !! on it for when things don't go to plan. e.g. change of staff at preschool or a trip gets rained off.

Hope this helps. Feel for you

Barmy - hope you're doing well today.

I second the visual timetable thing and also recommend a "timetimer" which I stupidly waited six months to buy even though I was told about it on mumsnet last summer. duh.

It's worth thinking really really hard about the visual thing - most of us females tend to think quite sequentially and it's tricky for us to realise how visual we need to be with kids with understanding problems.

I think it's so exciting that you are deferring because you have plenty of time to build up your own expertise and confidence so you can start him at school knowing what works for him and prepared to be an active partner. For instance, you can be using a "First....Next..." board at the pre-school and then use precisely the same one at school so he thinks "ah right, yes this is scary but at least I understand this - first play in the sand then circle time" from the first day on. Have you got access to a speech therapist and does she have ASD expertise?

I'm deferring my August-born son till September 2010.

My son's key problem other than the receptive language delay is being very withdrawn at nursery but the teacher is very excited that the visual timetable is helping.

Sorry I haven't been on until now, lots going on!

Thanks AGAIN for all your helpful replies. I am feeling better today, its funny, I have spent the last 2 days just wallowing in self pity and wanting to run away but today I have woken up and find myself thinking "right then, this is what we have been dealt so lets find out how to get a grip on it!"

Lots of questions now following on from the latest posts lol!

Widemouthfrog - I am so sorry to hear your poor DS had such a hard start at achool. I know exactly how you must have felt leading up to that knowing the problems you were likely to have. Can you give me any help/hints on how to attack starting school? ie visits beforehand, should I stay with him etc etc. If you could have your time all over again how would you do it differently?

Nyrrem & Robin - my DS transitions fine at home and outside (ie going from place to place though he hates unfamiliar or busy shops) and as far as I am aware he transitions fine at playschool. However, I imagine he does that ok there because its the same routine every day, ie, arrive, register, play, milk bar, play, story, hometime. On a Monday he has lunch and when he first did this I thought it was going to throw him right out but he was fine apparently. His hang up is over the 'place' iykwim, if he feels safe then he will do most things I think. Admittedly he hates sitting still for story time and wouldn't go anywhere near a video man that came in with a toy car to sit and be filmed!! Do you think visual cards could still help?

Lingle - First, thanks for asking how I am, thats so nice of you Secondly, whats a timetimer? Thirdly! Deferring! My DS is a June baby and our playschool normally only allow kids to defer until the Xmas. I know legally he doesn't have to go to school until after Easter 2010 but how have you gone about deferring for a whole year? We have no official appt yet from the hosp so we have no speech therapy help or anything yet. His problems at playschool are 'socialising', understanding personal space and being a bit too physical. He was grabbing kids again today, not as bad as yesterday apparently but still makes me very apprehensive.

Thanks again,xx

Barmymummy, you can get a Time Timer from here: www.taskmasteronline.co.uk/index.asp. Just type 'Time timer' in the search for products. I actually don't have one, but other MNetters swear by it, and the website has a lot of good stuff.
Hope you all have a nice w/end.

Hi barmymummy

Visit school as much as you can beforehand. if possible get photos of his classroom, his teachers, the playground, the toilets, etc so you can talk to him about what will happen.

Try and encourage school to use visual supports - eg a schedule for arriving in school (say goodbye to mummy, hang coat up, put bag away) a daily timetable. Set up a good morning routine and try to ensure DS is met by a familiar person each day.

You may also wish him just to go for half days until he is 5 when he is legally obliged to stay all day. We did this, and gradually added lunch and then all day by Yr 1

I didn't stay with DS - he needed to realise from the start that school was not a place that mummy could be - that was hard but it caused him less confusion.

Would I do things differently - yes all of the above would have been in place from the start. However our school had inclusion support in and he was on SA+ by the end of his first term. Diagnosis and a statement both came 9 months later. This is not typical, so I guess he was a pretty clear cut case of an ASD, even though his preschool failed to flag it up.

You may wish to discuss your sons needs with the senco, with a view to getting him on school action, or school action plus, and an IEP.

Hi BarmyMummy,

I still don't know enough to tell you anything more than the benefits a visual schedule has had for my ds. He had immediate and delayed echolalia particularly when he was about 3 it has subsequently appeared to fade as his vocabulary and number of phrases have increased. He finds the world challenging because he doesn't always know what people mean especially if they use a sentence he hasn't heard before. He struggles with abstract vocabulary (e.g. earlier, tomorrow, beside, on, in). His behaviour is controlling, I guess because the world feels chaotic to him. It has taken weeks for the penny to drop with the visual timetable, but it has helped him cope with the numerous appointments since he first saw the paed (speech therapy/ot/physio etc.) and his biggest life change yet the birth of my dd. We recently went away for the weekend without it, just not enough room in the car, turned out to be a huge mistake, he had a major meltdown.

Once it was established it has been really helpful when I can't be with him or he has to go somewhere new or busy.

Hope this helps

Hi Barmymummy

DS2 (asd) severe speech disorder, etc, etc, Visual timetables are great - as are social stories. Social stories have really helped when we have had to go somewhere and he has been resistent - I could go on and on.

We have a difficulty also Nyrrem with earlier, tomorrow, etc. S&L worked intensively on this - with visual pics and key sentences "yesterday I " "2days ago I" "last week". It took a while but there is definitely improvement. On, In, under, beside again was all done through S&L pics which we would go through.

Rambling sorry - been one of those weeks!

That is all fantastic advice, thank you sooo much. Will def follow up the school photos etc, thats a great idea. The playschool have offered to take him up the school for me for half an hour at a time etc so will take them up on that. Will help that its not me as he will learn he can do it without me....I hope! Will also ask if he can do half days for his first term maybe minimum.

Helen - could you tell me what 'social stories' are please, that sounds like it could be very helpful.

I took him to our regular Sainsburys today but it was busy, very busy. I couldn't get him in the front door. Lots of jumping and hand flapping (which he doesn't normally do). Had to talk to him for over 5 mins and carry him in and bought nothing as spent 10 mins just walking round the shop talking things through with him. Took him to B&Q as I badly needed batteries and he was better in there but am guessing that was coz it was quieter. He did flip at the till though, he finds waiting very hard.

I am seeing him in a new light now, now I have read so much and started looking at his behaviour in a new way it is starting to make sense. I feel so much better for understanding him more.

He is such an anxious kiddy, my heart breaks seeing him twisting and pulling his tshirt, hiding behind me, shouting at people to go away and other anxiety related behaviours. Also noted his echolalia went bezerk whilst in Sainsburys.

Has anyone's LO got similar high anxiety? I so want to help him cope with the anxiety but have no idea how to start to help him. What do you all do to help your little people cope?

So much of anxiety is not being sure what will happen next. And the visuals help with that.
I think you have to be very very patient and not tell him off.

Social stories are a way of describing events/situations to give your child a blueprint of how to respond/behave appropriately/lower stress levels, etc.

They are used to help teach our kids appropriate social skills, they can include pictures and photographs (more recently). The purpose of which is to increase our kids understanding of social situations.

The Social Skills Picture Book: Teaching play, emotion and communication to children with autism. USA: Future Horizons (Baker, J 2001)

Been in the same situation with the shopping, in fact, the swimming pool where we live is the worst - it's big, noisy and bright - very stressful for him.

We struggle with tills too.

He's still in the process of grasping what they're for. We're some of the way but not there yet

My DS is very high anxiety. I second Lingle that it can be about not knowing what is going to happen next, but it is also often sensory issues.

You could use a visual planner at home as well as school. We have found preparing DS for what is happening really eases the anxiety. We just use a simple weekly planner, with a morning and afternoon on each day. It works really well and has also helped him learn the days of the week, and differentiate weekend from school days. You can get magnetic ones from organised mum.

DS wears ear defenders in noisy/busy places, which also helps calm the anxiety as it cuts out one source of sensory overload.

Basically, preparation and planning is key I'm afraid.