I'm thinking I might try the visual symbols at home too - why are verbal sequences so hard for him?

[lingle]

Does anyone have an idea of why timetables/sequences are such a challenge for kids with receptive language delay?

With DS2 (3.6)at the moment, it's really only when I need to use language like "first haircut, then sweets" or "we went to Jack's house yesterday didn't we?" that I sometimes feel I've "lost him". And of course when other parents try to talk to him about past events he's completely lost.

His vocabulary, including verbs, is spurting - if it wasn't for the telling fact that 499 of his 500 or so simple words are ones I have painstakingly modelled for him over the last 9 months, I wouldn't know he even had receptive language problems with vocab acquisition any more. Prepositions are making a stronger appearance and pronouns are edging in since I started modelling them. I can see where he's going with them.

But anything to do with time is a nightmare - I don't know if he has any understanding of past tense. It's only since November that he understood "we're going to X's house". I see how many doors this has opened for him and I so wish he could understand talking about the past and about sequences better.

I'm thinking maybe I need to keep an open mind about adopting visual symbols (rather than more natural-looking photos) to deal with sequences of events to try to build up the receptive speech.... I just don't know... it's as if he has a certain type of language that he's still "blocked" with. I'd thought symbolic pictures would be no good for home because life is unstructured there but maybe I could use very generic ones - like one picture for "meal" but I could still use words like "breakfast" and "dinner" whilst showing it to him.

Does anyone have any views or understanding of why time-related things seem so so tricky? I would be glad to read up on the theory on this point as well because it's emerging as such a stumbling block. Recommendations?

thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Nice points Lingle (esp. 3)
Don't really understand what you are saying with 4. though.

I think with 4, Lingle is getting at reassuring her DS that the item will only be removed temporarily - that Lingle and DS hand over the item to pay, then Lingle and Ds get it back.

I'm finding this spooky (not in a bad way, mind) - reminds me so much of what I used to do with Ds last year! He would of course have been about 6 months older than your Ds though...

yes sorry, that's correct about 4.

He wanted to go out in the car today.
I said "first dinner, then car". No good - he was still frustrated and whining.
I grabbed a piece of paper and drew a line across the middle, plate at the top, car at the bottom. It worked a treat. Again he held on to the paper for reassurance.

Have bookmarked this thread because of all the useful info; thanks to all and especially lingle for sharing this. Still trying to come up with a good list of strategies for DS; would it be ok to ask you guys at some point?
I wish I had more time to just sit down and concentrate on this...

Reporting back again.....

"Don't Shoot the Dog". Thanks for this recommendation Moondog. The scales have fallen from my eyes in relation to some of the things I've been doing with DS2, especially potty training. Even though it is not a parenting manual and hardly any of the examples relate to children, I think any parent of non-verbal children or children who have receptive language delay would find this book helpful because it's about changing behaviours without using words or with words being of secondary importance.

Timetimer: the big one arrived today and DS1 (6, resolved receptive language delay) is completely fascinated by it. He seems to have difficulty telling the time and he was thrilled by the power of the timetimer to show him time. If he can stay interested, then it should be a doddle to get DS2 interested too. I think it would be very useful for a wide range of children, not just ones with language issues. They should definitely have one at nursery to help the children who are anxious about when their mum is coming.

Good to get the feedback Lingle.
Timetimers have changed my working and personal life.Yes, great for anxious kids as long as guarantee that mum will turn up when it runs out.

Lots of kids (including own) have graduated from using TT for simple time management to using it in context of more academic tasks. For example at present dd using it to time herself reading school books.We aim to have them both read in less than 15 mins. so what was once quite aversive sometime,s becomes a really exciting race against time.

Great thing is she is not competing against others which can be demoralising, only against the clock and against her last personal best.

DSTD is written for mass market anf thus Behaviourism Lite but still sound. Karen Pryor a very well known and respected academic.

LOL DS1 (6) was absolutely thrilled when it was 1 hour until school time this morning because he got to set the timetimer! He kept coming to tell me how much time we had left. And I found myself (38!) looking at it instead of looking at the clock - it's much easier because you don't have to do subtractions in your head.
I did a picture on the easel of "First timer, then go to nursery" for DS2 and in due course announced "look, the red bit's gone!Time to go to nursery!" which got him interested.

Re DSTD, I have glanced at the Mariposa site that Totalchaos linked to and was interested to see that their curriculum is essentially behaviourism just as explained in DSTD.

TinyC /thud - guess what DS memorised a couple of years ago - and doesn't remember a word of now .

I see it as better to discourage use of language in what I would describe as a "stimmy" way - i.e. as it being enjoyable as a string of syllables rather than as meaningful words. I think the approach for a child with echolalia tendencies is 2 fold:
1)try and break into the "stimmy" use of language - even if it's just by doing alternating lines of the text, or by mentioning another animal - a book called "giggle time" about ASD has a very useful chapter in about turning echolalia into something more purposeful - or as Hanen would probably put it - to encourage your child to take better turns

2)try and get different things going with the nursery rhymes - getting your child to fill in the gaps

I think that the traditional songs etc lend themselves to learning/communication in a far more obvious way than rhyming books.

I think that language delayed children don't pick up words just by repetition - that they need context and visuals.

TinyC: you're the expert on this, but I'm finding that you cannot avoid some echolalia if the child right now has a tendency to it. You take away the rhymes, they'll learn the songs, and I don't want to take away the songs. You take away Postman Pat, they learn the train announcement. So, I've been trying to break up the inevitable repeated chunks into bits which DS actually learns and understands and then uses in other contexts. I pick out useful bits from the repeated chunk and focus on those, using a bit of the methods you describe: I show him pictures of a specific word, for instance, or use the (shorter) phrase again in a different context, or (and I really see this as an experiment) I teach him the Italian equivalent. My idea is that the Italian bits floating in the middle of the repeated English speak will help to 'break up' the chunk into its components.
You can tell I'm clutching at straws, while on the waiting list for a SALT to tell me what to do...

Oh I am not suggesting that you can avoid the echolalia - and sometimes the echolalia can be useful, where a child is using a correct phrase, if not for the right reasons (by right reasons I mean because they can see how each word fits into the phrase), just to try and avoid the "telly talk" echolalia, where you have a child reciting several lines of Dora the Explorer or Hairy McLairy into thin air - but to try and turn it into a more sociable activity. I think you are absolutely spot on with what you are doing.

Cross-posting there. I feel I'm missing out by having no idea what (who) Hairy McLairy is. But he/she/it has to be better than Postman Pat and his bleeding cat (DS now kindly stops mid-song to allow me to meow at him - sociable activity and all that)

Hairy McLairy is a series of books about dogs and cats by NZ author Lynley Dodd. Very nicely written and illustrated. www.amazon.co.uk/Hairy-Maclary-Stories-Kestrel-Picture/dp/0670913863

Looks like I'll have to check out those Hairy books now . And TinyC and the rest of MNetters, of course you are experts - there is no such thing as 'just' a Mum. So far, I've learnt a lot from MN, and exactly squat from the so-called experts (also because we're still waiting to see them)

Neither of my children learnt one single word from all the tunes and songs they memorised. Neither has either one learnt one word from a rhyming book (well, maybe DS1 now his issues are resolved). But other kids do learn that way so it's very individual.

SC13, going back to your "social delays" thread, you may want to check out the Mariposa site mentioned in this thread. There is a unit in the "curriculum" called "encouraging social interaction". Have not had a chance to read it properly but it seemed very promising and relevant to what you were discussing.

Yes, Mariposa is ABA.
I have school employee trainning manual on my shelf about 2 metres away.

Tiny, this is interesting;

'Is it wise to encourage any speech and new words initially, even if the child doesn't necessarily understand what it means? Do children learn what a word means by repetition, by its context or is it better to give a visual for every new word that you introduce?'

Therein lies a fundamental stumbling block with regards to SALT and ABA.

SALT concentrates on meaning then fluency, while ABA does it the other way around (obv. a lot more to both disciplines than this but this is a fundamental aspect).

Since starting my MSc ABA I've started using fluency then comprehension (with lots of stuff like Precision Teaching and Direct instruction) and bugger me, it works!!

Has to be done by someone who knows what they are doing though in terms of thinning schedules of reinforcement and so on.

I think the filling in a word bit in a song is more about learning to share a task than learning language as such. I do think DS1 has learned to pay attention to language by learning to join in with 'his' word. But there are many forms of echolalia. Some children learn to recite whole songs/poems but don't want an adult to join and understanding of the words may be very limited/non existant. ABA has some good points but the limitations are that it cannot teach a child to be spontaneous or to generalise. (big generalisation I know !). I want to start using visuals but just can't think how as we have come a long way without them.

Cyber,it can and does if used properly.That's the whole point!
What earthly use are skills that are neither?

Tiny, i work with peopel with seemingly excellent language who have learnt chunks of language by rote, even complex sentences such as 'How did you get here?' 'What colour is your car?' and 'Where do yuo live?'

Interperse that with some basic spontaneous language and you can fool a lot of people.

it's a misnomer to think that behaviourists think that imitation teaches true meaning. The theory (relative frame theory) is damned complex but it is about buiding up areas that work well which is often enough to trigger off connections between them which is where the Eureka! bit comes in where understanding comes.

Do you reember those BIG MAPS YOU USED TO GET IN MUSEUMS, IN WHICH YOU COULD PRESS A (oops)button and see a certain city in the world light up?

I think of it like that. Light up enough separate bits and they will eventually join up in a long chain of light.

I'ld also add another interspersing about fooling people - be second or later on in a group asked the same question, and be canny enough to copy what person number one or two has said - it looks like you understood and answered the question perfectly.... I wish DS's school realised this stuff.

I also think of it as "triggering off connections" - in DS's case what seemed to work best to improve his receptive language (he appears to be a very visual learner) was to assume he understood very little, and point/gesture/repeat/simplify a lot. The frequent visual input seemed to work to trigger off the connection.