I'm thinking I might try the visual symbols at home too - why are verbal sequences so hard for him?

[lingle]

Does anyone have an idea of why timetables/sequences are such a challenge for kids with receptive language delay?

With DS2 (3.6)at the moment, it's really only when I need to use language like "first haircut, then sweets" or "we went to Jack's house yesterday didn't we?" that I sometimes feel I've "lost him". And of course when other parents try to talk to him about past events he's completely lost.

His vocabulary, including verbs, is spurting - if it wasn't for the telling fact that 499 of his 500 or so simple words are ones I have painstakingly modelled for him over the last 9 months, I wouldn't know he even had receptive language problems with vocab acquisition any more. Prepositions are making a stronger appearance and pronouns are edging in since I started modelling them. I can see where he's going with them.

But anything to do with time is a nightmare - I don't know if he has any understanding of past tense. It's only since November that he understood "we're going to X's house". I see how many doors this has opened for him and I so wish he could understand talking about the past and about sequences better.

I'm thinking maybe I need to keep an open mind about adopting visual symbols (rather than more natural-looking photos) to deal with sequences of events to try to build up the receptive speech.... I just don't know... it's as if he has a certain type of language that he's still "blocked" with. I'd thought symbolic pictures would be no good for home because life is unstructured there but maybe I could use very generic ones - like one picture for "meal" but I could still use words like "breakfast" and "dinner" whilst showing it to him.

Does anyone have any views or understanding of why time-related things seem so so tricky? I would be glad to read up on the theory on this point as well because it's emerging as such a stumbling block. Recommendations?

thanks in advance for your thoughts.

from what I've been told, time-related things are quite a tricky concept even for those children without language delay - SALT have always been quite relaxed iyswim that it's something DS hadn't got to grips with at 4. When I started time with DS, I just said "McDonalds, THEN playground, OK?". I didn't even use the word first.

One exercise SALT suggested for past tense was to have DS see a toy walking somewhere or doing something, then say "dolly went there/dolly opened the door" etc...

Yes, Lingle, time is of the essence with regard to lang. development.It's the first thing I work on.

Are you using Organised Mum calendar religiously and noting events to come and reflecting on past events?

Are you using a Timetimer, to denote elapsed time in a more immediate context?

I made al ot of sequences for my own child 9eg getting dressed, making popcorn, going for a swim) which make it more relevant.

Lots of commercially available sequence materials from catalogues such as Taskmaster, Winslow Press,Psychological Corporation but be careful.Many are too complex and ambiguous.It;'s bloody hard.
Taskmaster has some brilliant stuff but can't find online.Will peruse catalogue at work tomorrow and get back to you.It's great.

If you use sequence, start with simple ones (eg by side of basin for brushing teeth) then work up)

Thanks all three of you for your responses. You are very patient with my moaning.

Love the drawing TinyC. He really is good at it isn't he? Does drawing motivate him/make him proud? Could school find a way to further increase the displays of his work to boost his confidence and promote his self-esteem? Is he into strip cartoons for instance? Could he produce a cartoon story where others did a purely verbal one, for instance?

Going back to our family, I think it's too easy for me to focus on the bits where DS2 is progressing fast (vocabulary and combining) and not on the bits where he needs most help. But at least I'm realising that this is all to do with the time concept and the difficulties of representing time to a visual learner.

Moondog, I would really appreciate you looking up some product for me. I feel really guilty saying this, but sometimes I forget to cross off the day on the calendar (I'm sorry). I suppose I didn't think it was sinking in. But moondog if you really feel that perservering with it is worthwhile even at DS2's level, I will restart. This time I'll remind myself that I'm accountable to mumsnet!

I had not seen a timetimer before. For small unexpected waits like queues in shops, a verbal countdown from 10 to 1 works very well for DS2. So I guess that is his first concept of time ! And the timetimer seems like a countdown writ large. So this could work well for him. Out with the credit card methinks. The handbag-sized version looks like just the thing. I can imagine getting it out in the barbers to show him how much more he has to endure.

Moondog or others, can you point me to any reasonably accessible description of the difficulties of grasping time and strategies for dealing with this? You know what I'm like - I love the overview.

On another bright note, DH has been more committed for the last three whole weeks - a record period of time!! I am writing down target words for him to practice with DS2 and this is rewarding for him because DS2 is spurting so he sees quick results. Having two of us exposing him to relevant vocab. acts like a pincer movement on DS2, speeding up his progress. I am lavishing praise on DH to try to keep him motivated. I have even offered to do more housework. Which reminds me....

We're still at the point of getting DS1 to talk at bedtime about what had happened that day. We've found we need to start at the very beginning of the day so I will say "DS1 got out of bed and came to see mummy" and including every bit and prompting him here and there until we get to say preschool. He will then tend to volunteer a bit of what he did there and we follow it through step by step until bedtime, again prompting him here and there "what did you do when you got indoors DS1?" "I went upstairs and downstairs and upstairs and downstairs and upstairs again. You said "DS I am not coming up the stairs again" and you were cross" .

I have not mastered visual prompts successfully with DS1 yet, he seems to start focusing on minute details of them and does not "get" the concept behind them e.g. a timetable. He really does shut down on me though so this could be why combined with his love of arguing the opposite point to mine!

black sheep press have some workbooks about time, past, future etc. my 3.6 yr old struggles with organizing what he has done or when it was. time is such an abstract concept.......is his language at a level to cope with less concrete concepts?
keep it up lingle, i wish had mums like you on my caseload! would make my job so much better....

the info on this site is good, don't think it addresses time, but there is some discussion of receptive language and concepts such as adverbs etc:-

www.mariposaschool.org/materials.html

If you don't do it religiously every day, he won't get it Lingle.As simple as that.
Biggest error made is not to do something consistently enough or long enough.
I did it for over a year before my kid got it and then she did and suddenly we were able to plan and predict (future), consider present and reflect on past.
Doing so in a gross sense helped us when we moved onto more subtle time issues.

Taskmaster Fun Decks
Taskmaster sell an entire set of cards that cover pretty much every aspect of language. It's about £300 all in but to buy separately for about a £10 a pack (very pleasing, nicely produced, come in a lovely little flip top tin). Get the catalogue and read more about each as not enough detail online.

I'm trying to find some time stuff.
In the meantime, start with discrete easy to understand chunks of time using the Timetimer.
eg 1/2 hour of tv and then bed
15 mins and then Mummy will read you a sorry
1 hour and then we leave.
(My kids use it on me now when I get lost in MN!)

That waiting in line stuff to vague and unpredictable to control.I'm also of opinion that not everything can and should be expalined. We all have to endure tedious waits in line.It's the way of the world.Why pretty it up and cushion the blow?

I'm off to see if I can get oyu some beahvioural stuff on time.

Most academic journals only available for a fee Lingle, so even though I have access, can't link you to any.
I've come across quite a bit of recent research using Timetimers. (I started with a big one, and now use mini one on a stand with a discreet bleep to denote time is up).

This is more of a functional issue than an academic one.

The journal I consult the most, which is the bible of all behaviourists is Journal of Applied Behaviour Analysis as frankly it's the only approach with a sufficient evidence base to address these sorts of issues.

Do a lit. search. It is rather jargony though.Behaviour analysts speak a language of their own.

Best thing to do is get cracking with calendar and Timetimer.They are the first things I recommend with nearly everyone I work with and I have scores of people to testify to their efficacy (when used properly).

Re reinforcing your child and dh to keep working with him, you will learn a great deal about this through reading a fun (yet seminal) text on behaviour management called Don't shoot the dog

Describes core principles of Behaviour Analysis which has changed my life and that of my dd more than anything else on offer.

am drinking in the recommendations and advice! Thanks to linking to Taskmaster, I wasn't aware of that company, only Winslow.

Moondog - DS is linking events spontaneously with "and then", "and then", etc. Is this OK, or should I be moving him on by working on "first, next, last"?.

there's quite a nice "first,next,last" game on Do2learn:-

www.do2learn.com/games/dragndrop/timesequence/index.htm

Whoo hoo little Total!!!!

According to Moondog's mate David Crystal (whom DH referred as "the man" from prior professional knowledge of his language encyclopedia btw):

"At around age 3 there is a dramatic change in children's language. If any age has to be called a linguistic milestone, it has to be this. And yet it's all due to one of the smallest words: and".
He then talks about how children start to move from simple to complex sentences by using the word "and" as a link.

Here's a bit more.

"Once children have overcome the "and" hurdle, they concentrate on developing their control of other kids of complex sentence,. Several new kinds of linking word appear., "And then" is one of the first, as they start to tell stories where lots of thing happened.

It's in the book called "Listen to your Child". In the chapter called "The pre-school years" (how grown-up is that?).

very interesting extract lingle, thanks for the quote, I shall look for this book as well (while trying not to think too hard at DS only reaching the pre-school stage at 5!)

there's quite a nice "first,next,last" game on Do2learn:-

www.do2learn.com/games/dragndrop/timesequence/index.htm

How spooky - I was looking at that one last night !

An NHS SALT is visiting this afternoon to get us started with visual timetables so I'm hoping to get this up and running soon. Our lives are not very structured at the moment but I"m sure I can do something about that - I think I could do with the visual schedule as much as him, I could have blue wheelie bin day on there.

Thank you moondog. Will post again later but wanted to report purchase of timetimer.
Have bought a middle-size one for out-of-reach mantlepiece and a hangbagged sized one to join the beloved digital camera in my handbag.

Am going to read that paper before commenting further on time.

Just realised also that DH will have access to University Library for practically any journals - non-commercial use will be ok with the librarians.

ok I'm going to buy "don't shoot the dog".

Am I right in thinking moondog that we are talking again about where you part company from "classic" SALT techniques? I believe you've mentioned before that the classic technique is to model model model and wait for understanding to develop then teach the expressive speech - whereas you believe that you can actually teach understanding

That Taskmaster site is great, I feel a spend coming on.

I always find it hard in situations where I have to say to ds something will happen later, but can't quantify later to him in specific terms.

This morning ds1 was hovering by the door desperate to leave for preschool. I showed him the digital clock on the oven, and told him when it got to 9.20 we could go. Unbelievably he seemed to get this (he's good at recognising numbers though, which is essential to this!), and spent the next 20 minutes reporting on what the clock said before we actually left.

Am I right in thinking moondog that we are talking again about where you part company from "classic" SALT techniques? I believe you've mentioned before that the classic technique is to model model model and wait for understanding to develop then teach the expressive speech - whereas you believe that you can actually teach understanding

es Lingle.

I would love to work with you, you are so damned smart.

My beloved Headsprout is excellent at teaching first, next,last concepts in context of learning to read.

Taskmaster is brill but get catalogue. Website doesn't do it justice.

TC, any way of introducing sequences and time is fine.Key is not to get fixated on one 9verbal) way of introducing.

Mind you,lots of kids with normal lang. devpt. use a lot of 'and then' 'and then' 'and then'.

thanks for your reply MD, only just noticed it now. so basically no need to make a concerted effort to move him on from linking "and then" - or at least not to prioritise it. Interesting you say about not fixating on one verbal way, as I thought that was what I was meant to be doing (but have been rather erm lax about sticking too!). I remember you posting a while back about the "gestalt" of language - i.e. about it being good for children to know different words for similar ideas/concepts - I suppose it would fit in with that?

Did I?

Aye, it would!

Thought I would update on speech therapist's visit today.

We spent 3/4 of it talking visual symbols. Here are some take-home points which might assist parents of other visual learners.

1. In principle it doesn't matter whether you use symbolic drawings, photos or sketches on a scrap of paper. However, they advise against photos in nursery because the child may well get the wrong "take home point" and think the photo of a sandpit it actually a photo of their mate Jonnie (who may appear in the background).

1. The key thing is to work out how your child can have something to hand quickly. eg for "FIRST dinner THEN television", it may be best to grab a sheet of plain paper (from supplies kept in each room), draw a line across the middle, draw a round plate shape at the top and a tv shape at the bottom and present this to your child. I did precisely this once with DS2 and once he "came round" accepting dinner first, he kept repeating "first dinner then television" and looking at the drawing for reassurance. She said this is exactly what I need to aim for - him looking at the visual aid for reassurance about the meaning of the words.

1. She said one common mistake is always to use the sequences in this order FIRST less preferred activity, SECOND more preferred activity. The risk is that the child associates the visual aids with having to do something bad! So it may be better to do the odd "FIRST preferred activity NEXT go home" to even things out.

1. For visiting a local shop to buy one or two items, (he doesn't like handing items over at the till)we are going to have FIRST pay THEN DS2 holding the item or having it in his bag. I will probably use symbols for this and carry them in my handbag.

1. For parties (which he loves attending but doesn't understand as any different from playdates/soft play sessions), we will have FIRST toyshop (where I can buy and wrap the card and present) NEXT car THEN party. She was happy for me to have half a dozen or so events on the paper (I want him to learn about buying, giving and wrapping presents and their connection to parties) provided they are all recorded visually. However, she recommended folding the paper so he can only see current activity plus next activity or alternatively crossing off activities as they are finished.

1. She recommended using google images to get hold of your own symbols.

1. She recommended abandoning the traditional home-school diary and instead having a "visual bridge" card that DS2 fills in. The idea is one double-sided laminated sheet with up to half a dozen images of nursery activities on one side (that he circles before the end of nursery each day showing what he did) and the same number of typical home activities (tv, play with friend, train ride, television, swimming) on the other side for him to circle - at tea time I guess - to show nursery the next day.

May I sneak in a proud mummy moment at the end and add that she said she was "very impressed" with his progress and that his expressive speech was "coming along nicely". She even told me to remember to enjoy him .... [hmmm] could have done with a bit more of that six months ago but nobody's perfect I guess.

She also promises next paed. visit will be in a children's centre with soft play rather than a cell-like 8ft by 8ft room with no toys and a stern nurse placing him on a chair in mid-air....

thanks for the info Lingle, the visual bridge interests me in particular.

Thanks for sharing all that - I will certainly be trying some of it. DS1 is a visual learner and I am at the other end of the scale and I really struggle with it. Unlike his dad who is always drawing me diagrams of the inner-workings of a boiler

I'm glad the appointment went well, well done to your DS on his progress and to his mum too.

I'm guessing the previous paed. appointment was at a community clinic