I don't know how I am going to do it [sad]

[lou031205]

DD1 (3.2) (Developmental delays & Epilepsy) is pushing me to the limit. DD2 is 18mo, and I am 33 weeks pregnant with DC3.

I am at my wits end. DD1 seems really frustrated at the moment, and angry. She is deliberately doing things that are unacceptable, and repeating it if it doesn't get a reaction. Throwing things at me, throwing food on the floor, hitting me repeatedly, trying to bite me, pulling my hair. She flips at the smallest thing and shouts so much. I am exhausted

She doesn't seem to understand that 'punishment' is a bad thing, either. We used to give her the occasional smacked bottom. But we stopped when we realised it was not having any effect. We used to use the naughty step, but the Area Inclusion Officer advised us to abandon it because DD had no understanding of it. She isn't particularly 'attached' to anything, so taking things away isn't effective. She just moves on.

She hits me, then if I don't respond, hits me again. Or throws things at me, like half eaten pear segment. When I tell her not to, she says "I want smack bum". I say 'no I'm not smacking your bum' and she she reaches around and pats her own bum. Or she will say "I need sit step now", and go off to the stairs laughing.

I have no idea how to deal with her behaviour. I am tired, I am sore, I am emotional. I have turned into a screamer. A fishmother.

I always apologise if my behaviour is not ideal, and she often says "mummy no want to sad, mummy want to happy". Sorry mummy.

But I don't want to scream at her and I want to be able to mould her behaviour, but how?

I feel like we have been told that the step isn't the answer, but nobody has given us something to use. I need tips. She has no dx, so I feel a fraud looking at different specialist areas for advice. She is not diagnosed ASD, or whatever, so I don't feel I can ask for tips from ASD mums, for example, because she is not in any 'box'.

The consultant doesn't see these tantrums, because she is pottering doing what she wants to in the room with him and two or three other adults all engaging her in fun.

The SALT did see, but all she wrote in her (one side of A4, a third taken up with clinic details and DD's name and address ) report was "DD needed adult supervision to maintain her safety". No, she was climbing, banging her head, turning taps on and off, throwing tantrums, running away, claiming to be desperate for the toilet....

At her physio assessment on Thursday, she wanted to take the gym ball home with her, and hid under a chair with some magnetic letters when I said it was time to go. I had to lift it off of her and pick her up. She bit me, hit me and pulled my hair. I felt so useless just telling her not to and dodging the blows.

What am I going to do when DC3 arrives and I have a newborn to look after as well? I wanted to be a good mum. I am failing badly

Thank you for listening. Advice on a postcard...

She is seeking attention by her bad behaviour, which of course all the therapists tell you that you should just ignore and then praise her when she's being good. IMHO that simply doesn't work with small children. My DS used to throw food and hit/kick/bite, and turns taps on endlessly, and all that stuff, and I was almost going insane. I tried naughty step, etc etc but he just rather enjoyed being on the step. But one thing he hated was having his hair washed so I used to wash his hair for aggression. Every single time he did something aggressive, I wouldn't say anything I would just take him upstairs for a hairwash and look angry and cross. None of the "mummy is sad" but "mummy is cross as this is unacceptable behaviour". After a while, I just needed to say "do you want hairwash" with a cross face and he would stop in his tracks. Is there something similar you could use?

I know not everyone agrees with aversive techniques such as these, but on the other hand you are at the end of your tether and need something to break the cycle before the new baby comes along.

Hmm, it is a case of finding something, I suppose, that she really doesn't like. She LOVES having her hair washed and baths. So not that.

I hate having battles with her. I want to be happy. I want her to be happy. She just doesn't seem to have a concept of consequence. She steals her sister's food, and when I tell her not to (and remove it from her obviously) she says "I want more". I tell her over and over again that she must just say more please, but she just sees that DD2 has some (she is a slower eater) and thinks "It's mine".

I know I am probably not accepting the delays, and expecting her to behave as a 3 year old, but it is so hard because I can't pin down what I am meant to expect.

I do feel for you Lou! The problem is that some of this is probably just "normal" terrible two's, which always stretches into 3's. So some of it is just a child testing the boundaries and when we are tired and exhausted we feel like we can't cope. You sound like you need a rest today, is there anyone can give you an hour or two off? What about you feed her first and fill her up, then feed DD2? Lock her in her room when DD2 eating? Again, probably not popular measures, but sometimes mum has to come first too, and you are 33 weeks pregnant which is exhausting enough WITHOUT two other kids and special needs to contend with! Big Hugs!

Lou, I too would try a time out when she does unacceptable behaviour, it may not be the right thing exactly for her BUT it will help you if you remove her from the situation to a different room for a few mins.

My daughter's hated thing is having her toe nails cut and I still use this now.(she's almost 11 with GDD)

I might give time out another try. I am struggling to distinguish what is willful and what is lack of comprehension etc. Thanks for the hugs.

Toe nails is a treat for DD

When DD was like that she was just removed and put in her room (had a stairgate on at the time). Wasn't a "punishment" as such but just gave us both space to calm down. Admittedly, I only have two and have three years between them so for how hard it must be for you at the moment!

does she attend nursery as yet? it might be worth seeing if you could use that as a route into a referral if no-one else is interested. presumably if it is behavioural and developmental issues rather than 'normal' (lol) terrible 2's still affecting her (we had terrible 3's and 4's with developmental delays, but the behaviours sorted themselves out in the end) the nursery will have noticed too?

if you don't get a nursery place yet, maybe it's time to ask for an ed psych referral to get one? it would give you both a bit of time and maybe help her understand boundaries and rules and social situations a little better in an alternative environment?

Lou, first and foremost, you are not a failing bad mother! You are doing all you can for your children. Being heavily pregnant and having to deal with a SN and NT is hard, I know, I done it last year.

My ds2 (ASD) pushes me to the limit with his bad behaviour, and yes it is hard. I find that removing him from the situation, ie into a different room, calms me down enough to be able to deal with him.

Does she have an EP yet, who can perhaps help you get her into a nursery that can provide for her needs, and that can help you with her behaviour? My EP is fantastic, and has been so helpful over the past year.

Hi Lou, You are NOT a bad mother.
It is so hard when their understanding is limited, but she does sound as if she is associatng bad behaviour with consequences.. even if she likes the consequences.

Do you have a travel cot or playpen?? I have used it for both my 2 (NT &SN).. rather than the naughty step I would just put them in the empty travel cot. As long as she can't climb out & injure herself it is a completely safe place to put her & ignore her.

I'm sure an EP can give you soem much cleverer ideasbut that one worked for me.

Lou I have to second what everyone else is saying, you are not a bad mother. You are a wonderful mother who sounds understandably tired and scared at how things are going. And I have been where you are feeling exactly how you feel so I really do sympathise.

I am also struggling to differentiate between naughtiness and lack of comprehension. And I by no means have it all sussed!!! Its a flipping nightmare isnt it to look at your beloved child and simply not know what to do with them. And I just cant imagine how I would be coping if I had children other than DS so really, you are doing SO well!

I find with DS what is working at the moment even if not brilliantly is to avoid eye contact with him, calmly say "yes DS" or "no DS" and if appropriate, walk away from him. I am also trying to kill with kindness where I am so loving, so kind, so generous that it diffuses a lot of meltdowns. And when he really pisses me off and I cant contain it and raise my voice at him sharply, it has a big impact. But I hasten to add what works with DS one day might not the next and I am just adapting it as I go along!

But you have my sympathies and please be kind to yourself. Also dont feel you cant talk to other Mum's whose children have ASD any mother worth her salt isnt going to get in a huff about a label you do or dont have.

DS1 with similar traits used to hate being wet or having wet clothes.... so I used to chuck a jug of water over him. - or if indoors, just a cup (sometimes a chilled one for maximum effect). quick justification: he couldnt be reasoned with, ignored, or smacked either.

Also, just a mention, he is lovely now (16y) a real joy to be with, and we have a fabby relationship.

OOH PS: i had a friend with a 3y/o with behaviour issues, and she used to dump her fully clothed in a bath which the daughter hated... but if your DD is fascinated by taps that may not be the best option.

Have also got fed up with saying no and using time out with no effect on young children - I've recently printed some pictures off the internet (got a 'Hands are not for Hitting' one etc) and taped them to the walls so I can lead them to them and show them the behaviour I want. Don't know if it will work long term but they seem to be thinking about it anyway!

Thank you for all the suggestions!

She does attend preschool, but they don't see the physical behaviour, because in general they just allow her (on advice of the Area Inclusion Officer) to wander off if she doesn't want to join in, and unless she is in danger they don't intervene. If they do need to intervene, she has 1:1 so the worker can just cuddle her. Not so easy at home.

No behavioural support so far. Consultant never sees it because the appts are in a nice room with toys and 4 adults showering her with attention- I suspect that it would be seen as a 'terrible twos' type affair, it is just hard because I don't know what methods I should be using. Perhaps I will ask at the next appointment.

Have considered putting her in her room, but as she is a climber and no sense of danger, not sure if safe. But cot/playpen might be a go. Her sister still uses one, so perhaps I could try putting her in her cot for 2-3 minutes.

Ok, so today wasn't a great day. All day at preschool, but threw a wobbler when it was time to get her raincoat on. Preschool leader had to intervene and help me, because being so heavily pregnant I couldn't get down low enough to control her as she writhed on the floor.

We got home, and she kept taking her sister's biscuit. I warned her several times, and returned the biscuit every time. On the fourth time, I took her to her room, and shut the stairgate.

She howled She kept saying "Mummy gone, I lost Mummy...". 3 minutes later she was very repentant, and we came downstairs.

I'm not sure what she understood of the exchange, or whether it will lead to a change in behaviour, but at least she responded.

I've only got one child, so I'm not the best to advise but:-

1. as other posters said, don't feel because your child doesn't have a specific DX, you can't ask for help. children don't always get DX'd promptly or fit into neat boxes.

1. may be worth trying visuals as allthatglisters suggests if you feel she doesn't always understand. www.do2learn.com has lots of useful free symbols you can print off.

sorry today was a bit grim.

Thank you totalchaos, I will look up that site. This evening DD managed to get hold of a razor when she was in the bath, so she is now sporting a cut on the lip, and is distraught. As are we. Onwards and upwards...

oh god how very unfortunate. A couple of days ago Ds emptied all my mint mouthwash into the bath - but at least that was actually quite funny compared to you.

Yes, at least he smelt minty, lol

I have told DH 100 times not to even step out of the bathroom when the girls are in the bath. To be fair, I don't think either of us thought she would be able to climb and reach as far as she did. I think DH has got the message now . Unfortunately, "sore" is a meltdown point for DD right now, so she is in her element.

Lou, I think you're doing amazingly. My dd is coming up to 3 and has cerebral palsy but part of it comes out as behavioural issue and tantrums, again laughs at punishments etc. I have asked repeatedly for help but as she somehow manages to be quite sweet in public it's almost like no-one believes me. The one thing that is starting to work a little bit is to try and negociate with her. I tell her I'm not listening whilst she's crying and fussing and she needs to stop. The second she even slows down a little I heap on the praise and tell her how clever she is for stopping etc. We're getting there, has reduced tantrum time from up to an hour to around 20 mins. I don't feel like doing it, sometimes I just feel plain pissed off with her (she too does the taking stuff from sister thing constantly and I have found myself begging dd1 who is 4 to 'just let her have it so she'll be quiet' ). It's horrible when you just feel that you have no idea how to handle anything. I think it sounds as if the taking her to her room thing is a good start. Hang in there. xx

lou, firstly you are not a bad parent- get that into your head!, secondly i agree with other posters that your wee girl is in extended terrible twos. the best way ive found of dealing with that kind of behaviour is a two pronged attack- first, praise. praise everything that she does that is good behavour( as in how nicely she playing toys, eating tea, washing hands) its imporant that you are consisistant with this. toddlers of all types are sponges for attention , and if shes getting loads of positive attention, theres no time for negative(she'll be too busy lapping up the praise to be naughty) second part of the two pronged attack is distraction, this is useful when you want to cut off the bad behaviour in the begining or when you see the warning signs that naughtyness is comming, when this happens its an idea to sugest playing a favorite game, or ask he if she wants to have a story or dvd.toys that draw in the little one,(like playdough or puzzles)are good for this as the kids have to focus on what they are doing.again be generous with the praise!- hope these little tricks work or you, they have saved my sanity at times-( unfortunatly all the crispie cake making hasnt saved my waistline! lol,

lou, also at 3 yrs your dd is old enough to enjoy a "reward chart" - you can buy fancy ones at ELC, but home made from a bit of card and stickers work just as well. mine love getting the gold stars stickers(get them anywhere, tesco,s whsmith ect).great if you a secial treat at the end of the week if you get xxx anount of stars.even my dd4 does her wee chart ( she's got developmental delays/ suspected autism , her tempers are horrific- she bites).