Question for SALTS please. If a child has a 12/15/18 month language delay, what is it 12/15/18 months delayed from?

[lingle]

Is it measured from the middle of the normal range or from one of the edges and if so which edge? And is the point it is measured from adjusted for sex, so that a girl's delay would tend to be 15 months but she might be identical to a boy with a 12 month delay?

Many thanks in advance! It has been really bugging me when I see these references and can't figure out what they might mean!

By the way, quick thank you to Moondog for the recommendation of the author of "Listen to your Child". After I'd gone through it with a pen changing all the references to when things happen (I added another year to make it less painful!), I managed to read it with pleasure. Very helpful to start getting more familiarity with normal development.

But is it normal for a child to do that at 3.2? I've never heard any of her peers do it.

See all of this stuff is the really useful info, not centiles and SDs and what have you.
Besides, the Reynell is past its sell by date. Very limited assessment.

II'm quite enjoying using TALC at the moment which is quick, easy, non stressful for all parties and gives very useful info in a short period of time.Part of the ELKLAN package which is successor to Hanen it seems, and all the rage. It has its limitations and isn't a fancy pants sstandardised thing but its a useful little tool.

All assessment reports need concrete examples of what they label a child as (eg echolalic).

Behaviour analysts don't like labels as they are circular and ultimately reveal nothing.So, imagine someone is labelled as shy.What does that mean in real terms? It may mean that they run away when strangers approach them, and avoid eye contact in shops and cafes.

So why not say that instead of saying they are 'shy'? Clear descriptions of specific patterns of behaviour are so much more illuminating and also avoid the temptation for peopel to think the problem is all within the child when in fact,manipulation of the environment might be the answer (although behaviourists do not deny the influence of both ontogenic and phylogenic factors)

I wish we had seen you, moondog. Perhaps I wouldn't be anxious and confused now.

Lou - kids tend to all go through the same stages. So a child may just "reach" a normal stage at an abnormal time. Normal stages can and do include speech that's wrong.

You might find it useful to read the "Listen to your Child" book by moondog's former teacher. The reason I'm thinking this is that he talks exclusively about normal language development, including the typical language mistakes children make.

It wasn't too expensive or dig it out of the library.

But "overextending" is definitely normal - every animal is a "doggie", then maybe cats get differentiated but bears are still doggies for a long time.

Very interesting thread. I got DS1's full assessment report yesterday following his ASD dx and it picks up on all the quirks in his use of language. The bottom line being his language is progressing but he still finds it hard to "use language to communicate effectively for a range of purposes". It doesn't however tell me if there is anything that can be done so maybe that's just how it is?
The previous assessments done by the SALT at home and at preschool were the "put the knife under the plate" type tests which only concentrate on a small part of his difficulties but do give me an area to work on.

Have been talking to a teacher friend (she's been an acting head of a primary school so some good experience) about this assessment malarky.

She said that from a teacher's point of view, the assessments that just set out problems and don't suggest solutions still have a purpose. The purpose is the creation of paperwork that the teachers can then send to the LEA to back up any later application for more one-to-one support. It's a way of saying "look, we jumped through your hoops, but we still have problems 2 years down the line".

So that's helpful to know what it's for.

Unfortunately, it doesn't help us parents does it? As moondog says, shall we all start saying "and how do you propose to address this?" to anyone who appears to be involved with our child and keep repeating it until they come up with something?

Notfromaroundhere - I am very wary of these "put the knife on the table" things. Watching the SALTs test our children is almost counterproductive, because the techniques that they use to test are the precise oppositite of the techniques they use to teach! Assessment requires the stripping away of the visual "scaffolding". Take the scaffolding away and see what level the child falls down to. Fine. But if all mums see being done are assessments (which seems to be a common problem on the NHS) then all the mum will do is copy that assessment technique. And that would be very very bad.

Imagine a world where SALTs just observed until they could figure out the best first step and then taught the parent that step. Gosh we'd be short of assessments but the nation's chldren would have more language.

Lingle I agree the assessments don't get to what I feel is the route of the issue (with my DS1 anyway) and the big asssessment showed the bigger picture. What it didn't do is give me any practical advice and when I broached the subject of what more I could be doing I got a keep doing what you're doing response. Which would be fine if I knew what I was doing but I am flying by the seat of my pants where helping DS1 is concerned!

I am now looking at the private route but in the meantime I still work on the 3 step commands etc as they do impact on DS1's ability to join in socially at preschool etc but I am under no illusion that working on them alone will make a huge difference to his key difficulties.

"Imagine a world where SALTs just observed until they could figure out the best first step and then taught the parent that step. Gosh we'd be short of assessments but the nation's chldren would have more language".

You have completely described my dream world for DS1 atm.

Yes, assessment IS NOT THERAPY.

Thanks lingle. I do understand what you mean, but when it is your eldest child that speaks so differently to other children, it is abnormal in the sense that you know there is something not quite right.

Of course I understand that 'delay' is preferable to 'disorder' if you have to choose, but given the choice I would choose 'at peer level'.

Knowing that it can be normal to speak like that is helpful. But it still confuses me why she calls her Grandad "Grandad" unless she hears me calling him "Dad", in which case she switches. Why does she seem to copy us rather than using her knowledge of who he is?

Regardless of the cause or classification, all I know is that her language issues make life hard for her and us.

Lingle -"Imagine a world where SALTs just observed until they could figure out the best first step and then taught the parent that step. Gosh we'd be short of assessments but the nation's chldren would have more language".

That's what the Hanen course actually does, via the 4 home visits. Why I am such a fan of it.

Notfromaroundhere - "but he still finds it hard to "use language to communicate effectively for a range of purposes". It doesn't however tell me if there is anything that can be done so maybe that's just how it is?

It comes eventually. DS over the last nearly two years has progressed from single word level to "mummy can I get the koala brother cards from your bedroom?" this morning (and he was at 1-2 word level at 36 months). There are always things that can be done. Ask your SALT point blank, and talk things through on here about specific areas you want to work on, though the vast majority of us are non professionals we've been there done that etc as parents so useful stuff can come out of exchanges of info as interested amateurs. I see that you are also thinking of having private SALT - we did that - and it was a very positive experience for us.

In terms of the receptive language - I found that lots and lots of visual cues helped - hope that his preschool are making sure they give him visual cues/gestures etc.

lou - DS used to do all that too with names etc - I think that kids with language problems are so used to guessing/copying others rather than using their language skills to get by that it can be a bit of a bad habit. I wouldn't say these sort of mistakes were "normal" at 3 - but can be part of a speech delay in that it's a normal stage that's a bit later on. I've found that time - in particular zillions of times hearing the correct name in the correct context - eventually helps sort this sort of issue out.

Wow TC, is that how your DS speaks now? Do you think school has helped with this? Did he have any special speech input at school?

DS2 is starting in September and although he came out with a longer question the other day (but not since) 'Mummy can I have a drink in blue cup', he mainly speaks in 3 word sentences.

I think what made the difference was a very helpful private SALT suggestion to use PECs (picture symbol cards) to get his sentence length up really made a break through - that once he had a visual of how sentencces were structured, something just clicked, so that he could start generating sentences spontaneously. He is still behind with his speech - I would say say a year at least in terms of his conversational skills - his skills are best when there is a visual - picture or object in front of him, or when he has time to think up a request/comment, rather than have to answer someone else's question or comment. He still doesn't always answer questions correctly - would mix up who and where for example.

He didn't have any special speech input at school, but school have been helpful, as they have high staff ratios (2 teachers and 1 or 2 TAs) for about 22 kids, between 3 and 5. I think the fact it's a mixed age foundation stage class is helpful, as it means teachers are used to differentiating. The class teacher is very keen in general to improve the kids language, to help their literacy. So I think in general their approach is good for kids with language problems (the school is in a deprived area, so the teachers are used to putting the work in with kids who aren't high achievers).

Poshpaws, my DS2 (3.5) is now regularly coming up with longer sentences - he hit 3 words in October so you may not have long to wait! The excitement has worn off however because in some ways the long sentences just highlight his issues. So I can imagine how annoying it must have been for TotalChaos if the ability to use longer sentences was "counted" when they assessed her lad as being in the normal range. Our longest was yesterday: "mummy, do you want to stay in bed with daddy under the blanket?". He's using the tools available to him. So he says that when a fluent child would have said "I like our morning snuggles". I'm glad he can convey his feelings albeit in a way only I understand. But carefully constructed sentences like his long ones are not going to be useful in nursery. The fact that he can say "come on Isabelle!" as an invitation to play is far more valuable in nursery.

My wish list at present is:

1. understand sequences of events
2. understand two-step instructions
3. use pronouns
4. get to grips with prepositions.

The most encouraging thing at the moment is that little link words like "this one" and "that one" and "now" are starting to appear. I'm hoping pronouns will follow.

I am greedy. This time last year I would have given a considerable amount of my own blood for him to say "doggy gone" .

I AM SO HAPPY!!!!
I am opening a bottle of champagne tonight,I am having a party!

After 10 months of chocolate buttons, star charts, getting angry, crying, ignoring, washing, washing and more washing, my DS has had ZERO toilet accidents for a whole week.
HUUUUUUURRRRRRRAYYYYYYYYYYYY. Yes that is poos and pees!

Yesterday, he was watching MR. tumble, his fave prog, half way through he came to ask for the toilet, two weeks ago he would have just gone in his pants.

The BEST THING IS, that he is actually pulling his trousers up and down and just taking himself to the toilet!

Honestly, I thought it would never happen. Now I know there is light at the end of tunnel. Everything is possible.

oh goodness!
Obviously the champagne is going straight to my head!!! I have no idea how I managed to post on this thread about toilet training!!!

Right, I'm throwing the rest of the bottle away. SORRY GUYS!!!!!
Carry on chatting about your statistics.

Congratulations to Master Socks!

well done mini socks

lingle - funny you should say that about sentence length - yep, precisely that happened with the less experienced SALT.

Total - So was she hearing sentences that sounded quite impressive only you knew that he was saying things he could say rather getting straight to the point of what he wanted to say?

I could cite dozens of examples of things DS2 says now and if I started a new thread under a different name and said "is this age appropriate?" people would think it sounded like a 3-year-old.

But he still doesn't get "first eat your rice, next there's yoghurt"

I have the same concern as lingle - as ds1 is finally speaking in sentences, it's actually highlighting more of his language issues. He definitely has some echolalia in context, he says "it's dark, the lights are on, the moon and the stars in the sky" most evenings as the streetlights come on. While I'm pleased he can physically utter such a lengthy sentence (we were at one word level not so long ago) it does bother me that his language is not as flexible as it should be, although that is starting to come, in a very disjointed way.

He often repeats straight back the new words he hears me say, and then it crops up later on in context. The SALT isn't overly concerned by this, and thinks it's a normal way of absorbing language. And thinking about it, I probably encourage it, as that's the only way I could teach him language for ages.

He's just grasped the concept of saying sorry, and applies it to all sorts, "sorry ds1" when he falls over, "sorry trousers" as his trousers fall down etc.

I think we are blessed with a SALT who observes rather than assesses, and then loads me up with info, and task plans. She also regularly visits his preschools (he's currently at two) to train them. I love this approach and it's working well for all of us.

Lingle - no my point was different - that because DS can generate sentences spontaneously of a reasonable length, the SALT was overlooking the paucity of his vocab compared with his NT peers. I do completely get what you and kettle are saying about echolalia and sentences that are memories phrases.

Re:sequences - I used to strip it back further than that - "Playground THEN McDonalds, OK?". Btw for sequencing Boots do a lovely set of 3/4 and 5 piece jigsaws with pictures of kids doing various things - getting dressed, eating a meal etc - v good for discussions of time. Called "Step by Step" puzzles.

Kettle - with that sort of learnt phrase, I would try and "break" into it - by saying something about the moon - so turn it into a little conversation etc.

Lingle, you wrote the following:

'I am very wary of these "put the knife on the table" things. Watching the SALTs test our children is almost counterproductive, because the techniques that they use to test are the precise oppositite of the techniques they use to teach! Assessment requires the stripping away of the visual "scaffolding". Take the scaffolding away and see what level the child falls down to. Fine. But if all mums see being done are assessments (which seems to be a common problem on the NHS) then all the mum will do is copy that assessment technique. And that would be very very bad.

Imagine a world where SALTs just observed until they could figure out the best first step and then taught the parent that step. Gosh we'd be short of assessments but the nation's chldren would have more language.'

I agree, oh yes I agree. Assessment has to be done and it can feel cruel as, in the way you have describes, it requires a stripping away of the child's support network. I often feel like the Grim Reaper doing an assessment.

TC refers to Hanen in its direct approach without getting bogged down in assessment.

PECS (which I adore) does the same.You get straight in there, without worrying about ironing out behavioural issues beforehand. It's brilliant.

Interesting,lingle. So are you saying that it may be better if a child were saying 3/4 word sentences in a more 'natural' way, rather than longer sentences which sound 'not natural'for that age, iyswim.

DS has been doing 3-4 word sentences for a long while and if I miss his request a couple of times ,such as 'want a drink ', he will then say 'can I have a drink please?',so not sure if he is being lazy .

The list of things you mentioned are also interesting. DS is doing 2,3 & 4, but does have an issue with sequences of events, although he seems to be slowly getting it at home.

TC, great info about the Boots game. Have been all over the place the last week trying to find something like this and of course I did not look in Boots.

TC - ah I see.

Yes I think that's right poshpaws. Best to have all the basics in place, then longer sentences can come more naturally. He and little Kettle will be starting together - pity they can't be at the same school

DS2's only echolalia at present is event sequences. I'll say a sequence. He'll mistake it for a choice. I'll say no and repeat. He'll then echo in order to process it. I think it does this when he's grasped it's a sequences because he introduces the "first...next" words even if I had missed them out. But he still hasn't really understood the idea of a verbal representation of a sequence.

I ordered the hilariously named "Teach me to Listen and Obey" which should keep me occupied for a while. Which is good as my SALT sent me a reply saying she's sorry but has no desk time and will talk to me in March . I also got that book on visual aids for communication. The section on helping at home is interesting because it stressed practical reasons why parents can fail to use or give up on the visual aids - very realistic.

I'm going away for a couple of weeks so will try to break the addiction by staying away from mumsnet for a while. Unless the flight is even worse that anticipated in which case you'll be hearing from me! I think I need to go off and get my visuals better before I post anything else!

poshpaws, that's it - I would definitely feel more comfortable if ds spoke in shorter but more natural sentences than convoluted nonsensical ones.

And have a great time away lingle! Hope you got my email earlier in the week, check your spam file if not.