TEACHH ?

[cyberseraphim]

I know TEACHH is commonly used for teaching autistic children in school. I have googled it and looked at some articles but of course there is no substitute for Mumsnet Gospel. What are your experiences of the TEACHH program? What are its strengths and weaknesses ? We use a child led approach at the moment but we have no objection in principle to a more structured approach as obviously this will happen in school anyway. I have not read any rave reviews of TEACHH in the Mumsnet archives but just wondered if there are any more recent views?

Bump -

Maybe I should mention Hairy Horris ! Is he in the TEACHH program?

{grin] at Old HH turning up again. I think we ought to try to get him into every thread somewhere - with a prize for the person who makes the most creative contribution.

I was a bit sniffy about TEACCH until recently tbh, simply because I hadn't come across any parents who were really keen on it. But DH works for an educational charity and does some work in special schools as a result. He's heard teachers being very enthusiastic about it and has become quite interested in it himself as a result. I think like anything, if it's done well, it can be good for some children.

DS2 has just started doing a little bit every day (in mainstream) - he does two activities independently, then gets 'Intensive Interaction' time with his 1:1. The thinking behind this is that he needs to be more independent (he can do tasks but needs constant coaxing and prompting). However, his great strength is his ability to relate to adults in games, so they use the Intensive Interaction as a reinforcer at the end.

I have a good sheet from Growing Minds which discusses how you'd teach the same thing using ABA, TEACCH and one other method, which I've forgotten. Can dig it out for you if you like? (We also need to talk about weeing doll and who I should send him to next!)

That sounds very interesting thanks. That's the impression I got - that not many parents are that keen but then someone must be seeing results or they wouldn't go on using it ? We involve him in tasks at home to help him become more independent. He helps to cook and to clear up !

I think TinySocks was next in the list for our little friend but I haven't 'seen' her online for a while.

The teachers at ds' special school use TEACCH, tbh I don't know much about it but I do know that ds has done really well since being there so whatever they are doing it must be good! He has become much more independent since being at school - eg, dressing, toileting, making simple food.

sphil, if you don't mind, i'd love to have a look at that Growing Minds sheet (comparing teaching methoods of ABA and TEACCH etc)

we're still in the middle of schooling dilemmas, and have the option of dd1 going to an Eagle House nursery, where they mostly use TEACCH, but other than observing bits of a session today, I have no clue about TEACCH really.

I've grown sceptical about TEACCH for DS1 but must admit to no practical experience. DS1 does not really respond to symbols or abstract pictures and his receptive/expressive language is really coming on.

my first reaction to TEACCH is "wishy-washy".

But, went to an ASD nursery today, where they profess to use TEACCH, Intensive Interaction etc (we have thus far been anti these "touchy feely" approaches - well, not anti, but unconvinced they work for dd1)

the group was good. the lower group (where dd1 would start out to hone attention skills etc as she settles) was a soyu would expect, really - a bit chaotic, but mostly on-task. 10 ASD children, 3 teachers. Some circle time, which none of the children seemed to be paying attention to, but they each knew what to do when their turn came, then some table time. Lots of catching runaways and leading them back etc, and my heart sank a little as dd1 does so much more than this at home, and we're quite haphazard in our approach.

then I went into the higher group (more appropriate to dd1's age tbh) and I was , literally. 10 children paying attention, and turntaking at circle time. Taking delight in answering, and waiting with bated breath for their turn. then off to the tables for some writing practise, and blow me if they don't all listen to which group they're going to (list called out "XXXX" go to "YYYY's" group), settle at the tables, watch the demo, and get on with their work.

There must be something in it...

I think it works well for schools. I wouldn't particularly try and use it at home. DS1's school uses it (along with other stuff) and it's fine. Not amazing blowaway stuff, but just fine.

Like anything depends what it is you're wanting to teach....

thanks, jimjams.

trying to guage whether uprooting us all, moving county etc, and putting dd into this lace would be beneficial enough to warrant it.

we woul carry on with Vb at home (and probably tighten that up a little tbh, as we have been very laid back about it, and when we do oncentrate, dd1 really benefits), and she'd only be there part time, so lots of time for us to concentrate on some VB stuff.

hmmm, of all the weeks for dh to be working late every night - just want to get some decisions made!

that's interesting, electra, about the timetables. I think we use the same provider, and we are having similar issues. dd1 used to be fine with pretty much anything - do anything, anytime, just had to mention it as I took her out etc, but now, only a week after introducing a short timetable (things we are doing over the next half hour) she can't even have a story if it's not written on the board (ironically, the boards were introduced to show her why she couldn't have stories all day every day) Not sure why this was necessary, tbh.

It was the same at the group this morning. dd1 was pacing about a bit (classic avoidance stuff) but to be fair to her, it was the first time she'd set foot in the place! Anyway, it was snack time, and the leader asked if I though dd1 would go over, so I said "dd1, snack time. sit at the table for raisins" dd1 moved to go over to the table, and was stopped by a teacher with a pecs photo of the table who said "dd1. table time" and showed her the card. and I thought "wtf did you do that" as dd1 had heard, listened and was complying without any of it. If she had needed it, fair enough, but why make her reliant on cues that are not needed? and that was why I was asking really - even though there are obvious benefits to dd1 going to a place that really understands autism, if they are just going to make her more autistic over some things, it needs careful consideration.

I don't have experience in real life of TEACCH but the issues Electra and Silverfrog ( in the above post) mention concern me. I think DS1 copes fairly well in the real world and does not need a modified environment/adapted world. I have concerns also about the lack of educational content. Also I would be concerned about him being taught to rely on visual cues. Although on the other hand, now that he is talking, he is quite bossy and 'shouty' and very insistent so they might get very far telling him to use a cue card !

Though what Silverfrog says earlier about children answering questions sounds good so it must depend on who does the TEACCH I suppose

TBH ds1 doesn't need a timetable at all & is in a TEACCH based classroom that uses them (although I think they tend to pick out the bits of TEACCH they like, rather than subscribe totally to the system). I occasionally need to use a countdown clock to stop him trying to rush through an activity ('seen that done that now we go'), but he was like that before timetables were introduced.

I think its fine as an academic method, never really considered it something that I would want to extend beyond school.

we wouldn't really try to extend it to home, I was really only after people's thoughts'experiences in general.

Am still a bit about it all. as has been pointed out, it seems hard to get to the core of what teacch is on about. but then again, it clearly seems to work at this nursery.

re: timetables - jimjams, didn't you used to use pecs strips to show your ds what was happening? in a first x then Y kind of way (apologies if not you I'm thinking of) - that's the type of thing we are doing for dd1 atm, but just writing it on a whiteboard as a list eg storytime, lunch, singing, numbers. It was to stop her being so demanding and controlling over what we do (she was back to insisting on singing all the time, if not that then stories) the idea is that we (adults) are in control (ha!) and she sees that pestering for what she wants when it isn't time for it won't work. It has worked, but now she is ruled by the board, which wasn't the idea. humph.

(School POV)
TEACCH very much academic(well school based) system not something I would think of using in the home .
It works as long as its not the only way of teaching, that they get a 'reward' at the end of the set (even just 5 min free time) and you change the set up regularly or t=you end up with meltdowns over obsessions with certain activities!

What do you mean by academic ? That seems to be the bit that is hard to pin down.

The idea that ASD children are visual learners has become pervasive ( although I'm sure it has some foundation in reality) and I too have found it very difficult to convince professionals that DS1 is not a visual learner to any great extent. I asked a SALT how I could use his obsession with elephants to develop his language and she said that he liked elephants because he is a visual learner - I think her logic was that elephants are bigger than other animals and so he can see them better . There seems to be no external objective evidence that TEACCH is any better any other approach. I agree the NAS should do more to say that there is no one approach that works for all children.

electra - I'm in Kent (but soon to move, for schooling, hence this thread, really). We exchanged a couple of emails on ABA/VB a while ago when I was first looking into it all.

the autism=visual learners has been a real bugbear of mine (and I know cyber & I have been through this on a few other threads, too). dd1's old sneco was obsessed with getting dd1 to use pecs. dd1 is verbal, and willingly so. if there is a particualr phrase you want her to use, it is as easy to get her to learn that and use it as to understand about the pecs cards thing. but still they persisted. dd1 just walked off (can see her point, tbh, but now we have to undo all that "switched off from learning" that they created). There is a possibility that the teacher, in stopping dd1 to prompt with the card even though dd1 was going to the table anyway, was asserting that she (the teacher) shoud be listened to, as dd1 had been ignoring her until then (she followed my cue to go to table). so backing up something that dd1 was willing to do with a picture cue, so that the obeying of pictures is established, then go on to present another card and expet dd1 to follow the instruction form the teacher. sorry, not a good explanation - was up all night dealing with vomity children!

I agree totally about the teacch concerns. that's exactly why I have always thought of it as wishy washy, because there is no actual evidence to back it up, and also, other than being an approach used to control behaviours, etc, no-one seems to know what it actually is, yet most special schools use it. It's just a buzzword. they might as well say they take an old fashioned view of avoidance behaviour (ie gently insist that the child join in at least a littel).

also agree that each child's case should be looked at individually, and what is suitable for the child should be provided. but so often, people (schools) don't know what they are providing anyway - so many places say they don't/won't 9quite often emphasis on won't) do ABA, yet do do pecs, which is pure ABA - action/immediate reward stuff. It's all madness.

dh and I talked a lot about this last night (in between changing pyjamas/sheets/scrubbing carpets ) and we are going to go for the nursery place. It will be half dys for dd1, and they do at least know someting about autism. dd1 won't be left to drift arond ("freeplay". huh.) as there is a structure in place, and they do seem to get results.

In the meantime we will continue with our part time home vb, and between all that, hopefully we can get dd1 going in the right direction.

Now we just need to find somewhere to live, and pack up and move. jol good, shold be done by the weekend

silverfrog, I tend to say it. First x, then y. If he was really really difficult about something then I would introduce symbols (but it would probably be to keep him on a work task tbh). I can't remember the last time I used it in a visual form,. We haven't needed to. I do say first x, then y a lot though.

"he liked elephants because he is a visual learner" I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that one. Isn't it funny how pros start fitting the child to what they think the diagnosis means.

Thinking about it first x then y is usually used just to make sure he knows where he's going, or that there's been a change or he's being obsessive about something awkward iyswim.

''We've been given these resources, let's use them' - without giving enough thought to their application, and perhaps without adequate training.'

I think this is the problem - there is an autistic boy at the nursery DS1 used to go to who has very good language considering he is dxd autistic and not Aaspergers. The SALTs running Hanen thought he was above their level but the SALT at the nursery wanted him to start PECS! I do think PECs has its place and many have benefitted from it but where is the judgement and assessment of the child's needs ?

totally see what you mean, jimjams. it' exactly what we used to do with dd1.

I think I probably got you + pecs (because I know you used it) and what dd's senco used to say muddled up - they were always angling for dd to use pecs, because "then you can build a visual timetable so she knows what she's doing"

dd always knew what we were doing - it was whatever i said we were doing

she has gone a bit loopy of late (lots of avoidance behaviours, a bit shouty, a bit stroppy generally) and so our vb consultant advised using the short timetable to let her know that she can't just shout for things, and that what she wanted would come in good time. tbh it's just what i would say written down (which she can't read anyway) but the fact of writing it down does mean she lets me get to the end of the list without shouting for dinosaurs or Mr tumble, so in that way it has been good. But she has taken to it in an alarming way, and now asks what's on the board (short step imo to "if it isn't on the board it can't be happening" type panic). Consultant wants us to introduce a weekly visual prompt for her (she struggles with not seeing dh in the week) to remind her of where everyone is/what she's doing each day.

I am unconvinced, as she has always coped just fine with me telling her what is happening (and repeating as necessary. she is only young. I don't panic when I have to repeat stuff to dd2 eg "daddy's at work" x one million when they ask for him over the day) and I don't want to make her reliant on things she doesn't need.

but on the other hand, many NT children do well with having a weekly planner type thing.

I don't think her shouty-ness is due to her not knowing what's going on. I reckon it's more about controlling stuff (in particular, me)

oh well, we'll muddle through

Well you don't need to use PECS to have a visual timetable (that's my pet hate people -especially pros confusing PECS - an AAC system, with visual timetables).

Something that has worked really really well for ds1 for days of the week - and what happens on what day - is his school uniform. They actually wear different coloured t-shirts and jumpers each day of the week. He wears anything during holidays but is still able to track the days (even in the middle of the long summer break- god knows how). Don't know if there's someway you could introduce some sort of colour somewhere as your visual prompt.