Here's A New One (I think), Snowdrop

[Davros]

I have just read a review of a book called "Autism: A Guide to Understanding and Helping your Child". It says that Snowdrop's treatment programmes are based on the work of Russian Psychologist Lev Vygotsky....... Snowdrop's treatments lie in the theory that conditions such as autism are caused by brain injury..... The book is written by, and reviewed by, Andrew Brereton who is the father of a child with some sort of SN. There is no contact info, website etc but it says that this info is available in the book! Anyone know anything? Anyone interested?

just had a quick google, and presume that this is the Snowdrop organisation:-

www.snowdrop.cc

The idea of needing interaction to develop is very floortime- and the bits about sensory problems getting in the way too.... hmm will read more.

Weird to be written by and reviewed by- surely that's an advertised by

I agree that sensory processing impairments may be a root of autism in many cases- I'm just not reading anything all that new on the website- but the approach makes some sense to me. Certainly I agree with his assessment of the problems in autism. It's very close to me. I might read the book.

geographically close that is!

You read it and tell me what it says

It's not a bad site and I like the message, though I've no idea at all whether he can deliver what he says about using cognitive therapy to reduce autistic behaviours and strengthen social skills.

The brain can repair itself a bit, yes, or use different wiring to work round problems. Anything that helps a child to be happier is good, as long as it works and isn't just a money-making exercise by unscrupulous people. I'd want to see the evidence that it works, and talk with the children it's apparently worked for about whether they feel happier with their lives as a result of it.

Interesting - though I've only skim read. There are some aspects that concern me - mainly Amber's point about the financial implications. He claims in a simplistic way to know that autism is caused by oxygen deprivation/brain injury and seems to be suggesting that he can train parents to learn how to interact with their ASD child (as with what he calls an 'uninjured' newborn) and to promote language. These seem (to me) very vague claims esp. given the diversity of issues and problems with language in children on the autistic spectrum.

I've asked for info - geographically close to us too! Makes sense to me - worth reading I'd say.

I emailed you tonight sphil- let me know if it gets lost in your email transfer and I'll resend.

He does sound floortimeish doesn't he.I think his understanding of the sensory issues in autism is a bit simplified as it sounds as if he divides the kids into hypo and hyper sensitive when they could be both - but otherwise I think it sounds good. And he's come from the perspective of having a profoundly disabled child so I suspect he's in it for all the right reasons.

Haven't had your email yet JJ - so can you try again?

It's a bit spooky atm - there I am thinking of reintroducing Floortime 'properly' and then Davros posts this AND THEN the autism outreach teacher starts talking about Intensive Interaction (see my post today). And they're all so similar - and just what DS2 needs atm imo (alongside his ABA).

Oh yes - AND I'm doing a really good sensory integration course set up by our local OT.
Weird how everything comes together...

Ooh, I am interested in Intensive Interaction as someone on the CBF said it helps during meltdowns? Need to look into it further. We are all going round in circles up each others' ar*!s!

Which email address should I use sphil? The new one? (I sent to the old one yesterday). Oh but hang on I think I thought it was the 29th! Ah will resend. But I don't have your email address on this computer- can you send me one from your new one?

Been watching your videos today- and boy he really does respond well to Floortime doesn't he! I've been seeking moments where he 'lapses' (so you lose his attention and he wanders off/stops interacting/playing - I'm looking for this in all videos I have atm not just yours) - but he never loses it- hardly ever - not during the Floortime type stuff - just keeps on interacting. It's very impressive. Clever boy.

Aw thanks! It is a bit edited though don't forget - but he does maintain attention for quite a long time in those sorts of interactions. The DTT is now much better than the stuff you see on the DVD - a combination of putting him back on cod liver oil and Phoschol, which does wonders for his visual attention, and adding a lot of new material in - pics of his favourite TV characters etc. I think he was bored!

But the difference between the two is one reason why I want to try Floortime type therapies now - teaching him is so much easier and more likely to 'stick' this way. But only because ABA taught him to learn first!

Davros - I've just asked my Autism Outreach woman to recommend the best book on II - will tell you what she says. There's a website too - will link.

Agree with all of that sphil. Had some very similar footage of ds1 doing DTT and looking just like your ds2 which I sent to America to see whether we could do the typing. Showing very similar behaviours- and she said he looked bored. It was after GM had finished and we'd got a bit stuck doing the same old stuff that was a bit boring. He's doing well with this new stuff though- is interested again.

Phoebe Caudwell is definitely the II person to read. I've read a couple of her books published by Jessica Kingsley.

Yes - it's easy to get stuck in a rut with DS2 because he's so compliant usually. Easy to take advantage of! (That was one great thing about this Autism Outreach teacher - she saw that straight away and is very determined that it shouldn't happen. Wants to teach him to ask for 'time-out' and to tell other kids to stop if they're doing something he doesn't like. She kept saying 'we have to teach him to be more assertive' - whereas I have a sneaking suspicion the school like his passivity.

Haha I was also watching your son thinking 'ooh ds1 used to be like that' (i.e. sweet and lovely) then he discovered how to assert himself. (And I have the bruises to prove it ). It's double edged on the one hand I do think they make great strides on losing passivity (ds1 certainly did) but it does make behaviours etc so much harder to handle which can make it harder to go out in public etc. 95% of the time ds1 will still obey us, but it's often after some hideous act- whereas when he was passive we didn't get the hideous act in the first place iyswim.

Teaching to ask for time out is a really good one. It was about the first thing they put in place with ds1 when he moved to his special school. So he didn't have to run away from an activity or play up if he didn't want to do it and he had to return after some time out so he couldn't get completely out of things.

Yes - it's going to be a card with a photo of his LSA on it and he can use it to request her help as well. The best thing is that she's recommending that he doesn't ever spend more than 10 minutes sitting in a group situation where the language being used is completely over his head - something I've been banging on about for ages. I know he's sometimes sitting for the whole of a literacy session for example - and they're PROUD of this fgs! I LOVE that woman for recognising that they shouldn't take advantage of his compliance like that.

I've just read the book and the contact details are near the back. PO Box 85 Cullompton Devon EX15 1WP 01884 38447.

I don't think he does simplify the sensory issues, on the contrary he introduces several new sensory concepts, such as 'wide spectrum tuning' and 'internal tuning' and he does say that sensory problems in a child can be mixed. I thought it was an interesting viewpoint.

I was alerted by my webstat package that this discussion was taking place and so I thought I might answer some of the points you raise before I shoot out for the day.

?Based on the work of Vygotsky? - and others, Rogoff, Bruner, Wood, Dunn, Nind and Hewett.

?and reviewed by? - More of a description I?d say. - When you start off a new organization, you have to somehow get the word out there. It is nothing more than that. I think placing it in bold like that gives very negative connotations and is rather unfair.

?who is the father of a child with some sort of SN? - My son suffered profound brain injuries, which gave a mixed bag of symptoms of autism and cerebral palsy. - It says so in the book, on the website and on my blog!
?There is no contact info.? - Yes there is. In the back of the book!

?The idea of needing interaction to develop is very floortime- and the bits about sensory problems getting in the way too? - Floortime? Sensory problems do get in the way, again this is well documented in the academic literature. - We do need interaction, this is how we learn. Read Rogoff (1990) An Apprenticeship in Thinking. - You will find the evidence there.

?as long as it works and isn't just a money-making exercise by unscrupulous people.? - I can understand you being suspicious, I know some people like the ones you mention, that is part of the reason I started Snowdrop. I NEVER refuse to see a child because of lack of ability to pay and having been a parent myself, it would be like stealing from my own family.

?I'd want to see the evidence that it works? - Snowdrop is new and so there are no studies, but it is informed by the work of the researchers I have previously mentioned, and the evidence behind their work is compelling. I note that some of you use OT. - Have you seen the evidence to support the use of sensory integration with OT? There is none, and yet some of you readily use it?

?He claims in a simplistic way to know that autism is caused by oxygen deprivation/brain injury? - NO! I claim that there are many routes to autism, one of which is genetic, one of which is direct brain damage, one of which also seems to be methylation difficulties. Ultimately these all impact upon brain development, which in effect results in brain injury. - Nothing simplistic there.

?suggesting that he can train parents to learn how to interact with their ASD child? - No. what I am saying is that sometimes we have to retrace the initial steps towards language development in order to restart the developmental process. Buiding such skills as eye contact, facial regard and primary intersubjectivity, - these are the initial precursors of language development. - I don?t think that is vague.

?his understanding of the sensory issues in autism is a bit simplified as it sounds as if he divides the kids into hypo and hyper sensitive? - No! I don?t do that at all, read the book! I don?t claim to have all the answers, but I do have ideas to help some of the problems.

I am the original poster and I'm sorry if some of what I posted offended or annoyed you. I saw the review in the Autism London newsletter and there was no contact info in the review but it did say it is in the book and obviously, to get more info, you have to buy the book. I wanted to share the info here quickly so I did a very quick post without googling or anything. I also didn't want to make the assumption that your son has Autism as that wasn't clear so that is why I said "some sort of SN".
Personally I am very glad that you have posted here as the whole thing sounds very interesting and it is good to get clarification from the horse's mouth iykwim!

It does still sound as if the ideas behind it are very similar to those of Floortime. That's not a criticism. We use it with our son! (Severely autistic- non-verbal aged 9) Floortime sees 'affect' (emotion) and interaction as absolutely essential to the learning experience and believes that the sensory and processing issues are the main problems that prevent interaction taking place. They have the same idea as you of starting at the developmental stage that the child is in.

Have a look at ICDL and google Stanley Greenspan for more Floortime information I think you'll find lots that you agree on there. The link I've highlighted with Floortime above has some videos on.

I will read the book. We're in Devon too and your ideas look from a brief browse as if they are very similar to mine.I agree that sensory processing issues are absolutely central. I'm doing research in this area at the moment (how children with severe autism interact) and am very interested in how intersubjectivity is achieved. I'm really keen that the research can inform parents and educators as well. We should meet up sometime, I think it could be mutually beneficial

Sorry you thought some of what I said was critical- I was actually agreeing with most of what you said!

Welcome to mumsnet!

Yes I would echo above - I probably skim read and paraphrased too much in my posting. I agree that there are now many routes to an autism diagnosis - which in itself requires no cause, only a set of symptoms, that in some cases might be produced by brain damage. I don't believe my son has brain damage though but that's just my personal opinion. I think he has a brain that has developed differently. Most people agree that stimulation and interaction are key to development so I'm sure your techniques can contribute to that form of development.

Aha- have downloaded the book - started reading and been nodding along in agreement.

brere1 - there's a brand new publication I can direct you to regarding the tuning mechanism which really supports what you're saying. And provides really useful insights into severe autism.

Can I contact you via your website? I need to read more of your book, but we're definitely thinking along the same lines.

Davros. - Absolutely no offence taken. I am all for a free and frank exchange of ideas and views. But if you read the review of the book from Autism London, I certainly had nothing to do with the writing of that! I have provided various synopses for my books, but I don't have any control over what Autism London write!