EP report

[paranoid2]

An EP did an assessment on my DS a week ago and he did really poorly. I have not had a report back yet but when the Ep talked me through the scores she said that some of his results were in the bottom 4% and 6% of the population. I cant remember exactly which results were which but I do know he scored ok in things like ? What are trains and buses - vehicles? I don?t think he was asked that one but something along those lines. He did poorly in anything that required sustained mental effort like maths problem solving . She said his IQ results (which she didn?t give me although I?m sure it will be on the report) could possibly be taken with a pinch of salt as his attention was so poor. She wasn?t sure if he didn?t understand some of the questions, didn?t listen to them or have a language processing problem. When his mind doesn?t want to focus its extremely difficult to get him on track He is currently going through assessment for ADD and dyspraxic traits and she did agree that his attention was a major barrier to his learning and that he has associated learning difficulties. She is recommending that he moves to a special unit attached to a mainstream school for children with moderate learning difficulties. She says

I know his attention is poor but I cant get my head around him being described as having moderate learning diffs . Would he not have been late to develop in other areas ie he wouldn?t have done things like walking, talking, knowing colours, shapes , early maths skills at the appropriate age. He did well in nursery school and got a good report at the end of it albeit they said he sometimes had difficulty following instructions. However he was graded as doing very well in understanding language associated with things like size, quantity , opposites , positional words etc which seems to be the sort of problem that he is having now. If he had moderate learning diffs would this not have been an issue then?. I know he is behind his peers but he is a summer baby (premature by a month ) so he should be in the year below . He is good at spelling and phonics although is a slow reader (ORT 6/7) . He seems to put a lot of effort into sounding words out and by the time he does this he has lost the story somewhat although this is improving.His writing is ok although his sentences have a tendency to get jumbled and he forgets to put in words sometimes as his mind seems to be going quicker than his pen . He is a lovely sociable and communicative boy and everyone in our family thinks he is a clever child. In fact his nursery teacher said she thought he was a clever child and I now cant get my head around the fact that he has a low IQ, needs a statement and is going to be moving to a MLD school. Thanks for listening to my ramble

sorry you had such a depressing appointment. I had a similar experience after a SALT appointment with DS - really left me questioning everything (position different to yours as ultimately EP didn't agree with SALT).

Has your DS had any SALT involvement and/or a hearing test - as a language processing problem/receptive language problem can have a huge knock on effect on learning - so should IMHO be looked into further rather than just be mentioned by EP as a potential issue.

I know this may sound pollyanna ish - but whatever EP says- you still have the same child, a lovely bright boy - even if he does need the level of support EP has recommended.

Thanks TC. Yes Ds was assessed by an SALT and OT last year. He did demonstrate a bit of a delay in his receptive speech . However the paed and team decided to give Ds some physio as they felt his motor issues were having an impact on his processing in that because a lot of effort was spent on his movement and that didn?t leave much space for his brain to do other processing. He has had 2 lots of physio and at the end of his last session he was coming out as above where he should be although I am sceptical on that one. However I do believe he is ok for his age at least in terms of being able to do certain things. He does not have great spatial awareness and is disorganised

do you know if hes been tested for dyslexia? i know quite often it goes with dyspraxia, and it would explain the difficulty with the jumbling/missing words, being a slow reader - and also with the phrase "moderate learning difficulties" and possibly with the following verbal instructions (as the meaning would get jumbled, as hes trying to remember what it was you wanted him to do).

I think all in all, i know on the face of it, it looks scary, but its really not that bad - and a lot of these problems can be helped enormously by a slight change of tactic from the teacher, and working round them.

my DS1 has ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, ocd and a few other bits - but his inital developement was fine! he walked at 10/11 mths (but never crawled ) Hes 15 now, and loves reading, still a bit impulsive (a bit ) and a little 'young' for his age. And he was an absolute whizz with maths (quick boast - he understood basic fractions at 5, and could manage GCSE maths at 11). He also spells everything FON-NET-IK-LEY.

Perhaps you could give the EP a call and get them to explain the report to you in detail, and that would probably set your mind at ease. Its probably just the jargon used that makes it sound worse.

{hugs} keeley

Thanks MCAS. No he hasnt been assessed although I would have thought the EP would have suggested this if she thought it a possibility. He is a pretty good speller, he was assessed as being within the normal range for this. Would this rule out dyslexia do you think? He is a bit strange in that if I ask him to read a sentance containing a word that I know he can spell verbally which is maybe not easy to spell phonetically , he may start to sound it out and lose his way a bit. then if I say spell it out he knows what it is straight away.

TC you say that the SALT didnt agreed with the EP? Just curious as to what the outcome of that was if you dont mind me asking

hmmm - no, it doesnt sound like run of the mill dyslexia (im no expert at all, but i have 2 children with it). But it sounds like the way things are phrased makes a huge difference. Think i have to side with TC on her phrase "...language processing problem/receptive language problem" would seem nearer the source of that particular problem.

Bit of background - DS is 4.3, very delayed speech and understanding, possible ASD. I am quite OK with the idea of DS spending time in a language unit attached to m/s. (it's actually been me rather than the professionals raising the issue!)

saw SALT first - report/conversation was generally very pessimistic - that DS didn't interact with other kids at all and had no pretend play. she wanted DS referred to EP to check out LDs - she thought that DS may not be suitable for a language unit place (she told me that in our area kids can't have LDs over and above language ). Which wasn't actually true as they do have 1 language unit for kids with MLD but I digress...

anyway when he saw ed psych (at joint clinic for ASD assessmeht), she did non-verbal tests, and he did OK at those, so no further EP involvement at all at this stage. The paed and ed psych wanted to see how DS coped in reception, rather than start him in a language unit straight away.

I'm sure you feel very shocked.
How old is your ds - you mentioned nursery and reading.
I have no expertise (just a mum whose been through the statementing process) but my understanding is that if a child does well in some areas (strengths) but has low centiles in others it tends to point at specific difficulties/ disabilities. The child will need support tailored to their difficulties. Was the EP using the word moderate in its technical meaning or just as a figure of speech? (The term moderate learning disabilty in educational terms is roughly equivalent to the medical term mild learning disabilty if that helps put it in perspective)
Perhaps you need to talk to the EP an get him/her to explain the report and its recommendations.
If an assessment for a statement goes ahead , an EP and others are asked to do fuller assessments- so if doesnt all rest on one assessment.
Just as an aside have you had an eye exam for ds to rule out a visual difficulty?
Your lad sounds lovely!

Thanks both of you. I don?t have an issue with him having a problem in one or more areas , in fact at this stage I would be quite relieved. However I came away feeling that the EP was categorising him as having general moderate learning difficulties and that wasn?t something I was prepared for given that his general development has been pretty much within the normal range until now. I am trying to take comfort from the fact that she said his scores could be taken with a pinch of salt but I guess the fact that she couldn?t determine where he really was is enough to suggest that he needs help. I had read that some of the more commonly used IQ tests ensure that children with language processing skills don?t do as good as they could do on other tests.

The EP is suggesting 2 options , to move to a unit attached to a MS school or to stay in MS and have a TA although she is recommending the former. In the unit there would be 10 in the class and a TA. In MS there would be 26 in the class. Anyone any thoughts on what would be best? I feel that a 1 to 1 would be a great help but on the other hand perhaps being in a special unit with a trained special needs teacher and trained special needs TA to focus on his needs he could do better. I also have to consider that if he is disgnosed with ADD he may receive medication which could help him to focus better . He is also a twin so complicated in that sense

Hi Magso.

Sorry should have said DS is 7. No real issues raised until term 1 of year 1. Thats actually very interesting about the termonology. I was driving myself mad with worry because when I looked at moderate learning diffs on the internet I couldnt really relate this to DS at all. What you have described makes more sense. DS is very longsighted and wears glasses all the time. He does still appear to have tracking problems when reading but he is regularly tested and he seems to be seing ok at tests. He seems to have a minor 3d vision issue but orthoptist has said she will review again but it musnt be a big issue

paranoid - well that's the 100 dollar question isn't it, whether m/s with support or unit is better! is he happy at his current school? do you feel teachers/senco at his current school are working well with your DS? with DS' language issues, in some ways m/s could be said to be better, as DS would hopefully pick up language and other social skills from the other kids, am not sure how far that would be relevant with your DS. with language units it's not seen as a permanent move, more a case of giving a lot of support for a few years, then moving back to m/s, so I don't know whether that would be the case for the unit suggested by the EP or not.

Yes that is the case. Its not a language unit as such, its a unit for children with MLD's but the objective is for children to attend for a minimun of 2 years and hopefully then to integrate to MS. the ultimate aim to have children back in mainstream without a statement and according to the school by in large they are successful in doing that. However I do worry about the social aspect. However the class does integrate for a period each day with the MS children . I would have to move his twin also as I dont think I could have 2 children in schools quite far apart . Both boys very happy where they are at present. Ds is a very happy boy generally so would not mind a move. More worried about his twin and the unfairness of getting him uprooted because of his brother

Paranoid-would you be able to visit the unit ep has in mind? This may help you answer the question of which would suit your son better.
Look at the teaching methods (they are usually more visual/ multisensory/ practical - less language dependant than ms), the enviroment (quieter / fewer distractions perhaps) and the other children (behaviour and abilities relative to your child). Also try to view the junior ms classroom- how does it differ from this year? Would your son feel singled out or supported by a TA?
HTH Magso

they may provide transport if your DS goes to the unit so it might be possible for your other DS to stay in his school. I don't know much about twins, but can see that you would feel uncomfortable about separating them.

Magso, yes i did visit the unit and thought it would probably be good for Ds as the classroom was very quiet and everyone seemed to be working away. (sure that would change with the arrival of ds!)It just feels like such a change and I really really want to keep them together and feel guilty about taking his twin away. In fact the school with the MLD unit is actually much closer to home but further from work . However good from the social aspect in that friends would be closer. I didnt see the MS classroom as I would keep him where he is if I opted for MS. However I would need to see the MS class for his twin if both were moving.

had not thought about transport but will investigate that one

Good luck with your decision. I think transport can be provided if the nearest specialised provision is more than 3 miles away (2 for a child under ?is it 8). Although the rules may vary from county to county.

Hi Paranoid. I tend to agree with Tc and Tclanger. You know your own child, and it sounds like you cant quite fit the child you know so well into the eps interpretation of her findings. (Forgive me if Ive got it wrong)
What I'm trying to say is trust your gut feelings. If you think your son has areas of difficulty but not overall LD then you are probably right.
If the EPs report still leaves confusion it might be worth considering, (if funds allow)having a private independent assessment(s). It may not affect your choice of education but it might help make this and future decisions with greater confidence.
Has your son had ta support in ms already? Do you have to sort it all out by end of term? (that sounds a tall order!)
Hope you get some sleep. It sounds like you had a heavy couple of days!

Thanks all. No I don?t have to have it sorted before end of term. The statement wont be through by then so I cant do much before that happens. I don?t know what to think anymore. I do believe that his inability to focus is a major block to his learning and as a consequence he has learning difficulties . However from what I read the weschler IQ test which is the one the EP used is meant to take inattention into consideration and I know that some children with ADD come out as having high IQ. However I also read that children with ADD that have associated language processing problems do poorer in these types of tests. He is a strange mix. Over the last few nights he has been writing cards for teachers, thank you cards for birthday presents and a few other bits and bobs . He just didn?t want to do it and therefore it was all over the place. Things I knew he knew, he couldnt produce. Then last night he had to do more but he was keen this time . Different child. Handwriting better, spellings done in line with what he knew , the flow of writing much better. The day before the EP assessment was his birthday and his party was the day of the test so definitely not keen on that day.

Tclanger, your point about the MLD and SALT has given me something to think about. The other MLD unit in our area has a speech unit within it too. Not sure about the MS part of the school though and that?s why I hadn?t considered it. However I will have to think about this too

Thanks for all your help. It really helps to ramble on MN

Dear paranoid, your son's difficulties at school do remind me of my DS2 (also 7). We have just had all his school work returned as it is the last day of term here. He produces very little quality work in school, never gets to bottom of worksheets etc. Occassionally if it is a subject that he is interested in he will suddenly do some good work, it confuses the hell out of teachers. My two older DS's fing it so hard to concentrate in class that I am resigned to topping up their learning at home and at the moment I am doing "toe by toe" with DS2, it is really helping with his decoding of words and his reading(and spelling too). When I come in to school to help him one to one he can race through work. Don't think about him having a low IQ, just think of as having difficulty using his intelligence in a classroom setting, a small class and 1 to 1 will help give him a leg up. Do other stuff to work on the whole range of his skills, not just academic ones ie. bike riding , computer games, swimming, a musical instrument, they all help boys with concentration problems in my experience.

Hi Allytjd - same here , last day at school today and DT2 brought home his workbooks. I had a brief look but decided not to depress myself any further at the moment and put them away. You are right - must focus on other things over the summer. Dt2 is a better swimmer than DT1 and is now at a higher level than him which is a rarity. The EP said Dt2 did better at the tasks that interested him which is not surprising really.

From what you have written, it sounds a bit as if the EP is not entirely sure that your DT has got moderate learning difficulties. (Incidentally, this is a term which is generally used to describe children who have difficulties across the board e.g. in their social,language and cognitive development and also sometimes physical development.) All she has said is that his performance on the WISC on this occasion placed him around the 4th to 6th centile, but that this might not be a true representation of his abilities given how difficult it was to get him to focus. She may however feel that the unit is the best place to support him and to help him focus, even though he does not have general learning difficulties.

You would expect a child who is classified as having moderate learning difficulties to have reached most of his milestones later than most of his peers.

Just realised that you also mentioned that your DS was assessed as having delayed receptive language skills. This can have a huge impact on how chidren learn in school, particularly as the move further up the school. In the early years a lot of learning is done through actively doing things but as they get older much more of the teaching is done verbally and often without lots of visual cues. Poor understanding of language also hugely affects concentration. Imagine sitting in a lesson given in French all day, every day and only understanding half the words used. I'd drift off, as would most people. I'd miss what was being taught and I'd probably learn that lessons were not really worth paying attention to. So, I would also suggest that his language skills are looked at in greater depth by a SALT. An IQ test will not give you the information you need.

Neolara. I suspected by your response that the were an EP and after a nosey at your posts found you were in a former life.
Thanks for taking the time to trawl through all my ramblings and responding, On reflection of everything especially from reading all the useful posts I suspect Dt2 has ADD with some language processing issues which appears to be common in some children with ADd. This is probably having an effect on his scores. Although I am under no illusions that I really have a potential genius I am inclined to think that a bit below average but within the normal range would be where I would place him in terms of overall development in the sense that he met his key milestones along the way and some earlier than he should have. He showed some delay in receptive speech but it was suggested that it related to motor issues. I dont know much about language processing issues but my gut feeling is that his inability to process whats being said relates to his inability to focus on listening in the first instance rather than his inability to understand whats being said although I wouldnt rule out a bit of the latter either if all that makes sense. An example of this would be when sometimes I could I ask him something that I know he knows and can understand the language I'm using if hes in an unfocused mood and wanting to think about something else he would guess. at other times he could get it completely correct. I'm sure none of this makes sense

Eek! I know EPs tend to be quite unpopular on lots of SEN threads so it's a bit scary being outed.

It can be tricky unpicking exactly what is going on to cause a child's difficulties. My feeling is that parents generally are the experts on their children and they usually have a pretty good idea of what is going on. I hope your EP listens to what you have to say. And I hope your DS gets the help he and support he needs soon.

Oh I feel really bad for having outed you, Never thought before I posted, However although I didnt recognise your name I remembered your recent posts when I read them . I would have thought the SEN people would welcome the input from a sensible EP although u probably just want to be a mum on mn. Really sorry

Whilst the Ep was sympathetic to my reaction to her side of things I really didnt think she was interested in what I had to say regarding him. She asked me for a history and the only question she asked me specifically was " did he potty train ok" (which he did) I suppose I covered what I considered to be the important ones like talking , walking but was a bit surprised that that was all she could come up with to ask about. Its hardly a key indicator of anything is it on its own?