Holiday with family friends and their ND child

[upoutandin87]

Currently on holiday with my family and another family (old friends) they have 2 older children same age as my kids and they also now have a 6 yr old. We have holidayed with them before but not since the youngest was born. Youngest is ND (autism and suspected ADHD). My son is 15 and autistic so I know about ASD but there DD seems out of control and we can't cope with it. She swears spits hits and throws furniture if she doesn't get her own way - there is no routine and she basically gets what she wants - she slapped my DD earlier today and called her a f b because she didn't want to go in the pool with her - my friends answer to this was you cannot say no to her - if you don't do what she wants she kicks off so we have to let her do what she wants. My friends DH and 2 older kids can't cope with her so they go to the beach and take my 15 yr old with them - I prefer being by the pool so I stay with them and my DD 17. We honestly don't know what to do as our holiday is being ruined by a 7 yr old. She threw my bag in the pool yesterday and I was fuming. We are trying to do stuff without them but they seem to be constantly appearing - they never raise their voice at their DD or tell her to stop as negative language makes her worse. Last night their 15 yr old told my son that she has been permanently excluded from her primary school and she currently has no school place from September - I was aware she has had several exclusions for violence but only short term exclusions but her parents have not mentioned to us about the exclusion. My DH wants us to cut all ties with them until they start parenting their child properly. We are only 3 days in to a 10 day holiday and are tempted to fly home to get away from them. I feel so bad as I am an SEN parent myself but they won't take any advice from us about maybe having a routine and setting boundaries. I so feel for them as they are completely broken by her behaviour but I don't actually know what I can do to help.

You can tell her “no” and you can do things without her. I’d be kind if you can but carry on and have a nice holiday on your own as much as possible. Ask them to pay for anything broken in the bag. Tell them if she is never to hit your dd again and mean it. Clear boundaries and a clear focus on your own experience.

I don’t really have advice but as a mother with a NT 4 year old this is why I have told family and friends we are going on holiday on our own, it’s hard as a parent when your child behaves like this, my child behaves similar and it’s really hard. I wouldn’t want family or friends to spend loads of money to have there holiday ruined, I’m sure if you polity said you would like some time on your own as a family they would be fine, I’m sure they are probably worrying about spoiling your holiday too. Just remember they deal with this type of behaviour on a daily basis and I would imagine they are trying to keep things calm because what you’ve seen isn’t her at her worst.

A joint holiday isn’t going to work.

Just remember they deal with this type of behaviour on a daily basis and I would imagine they are trying to keep things calm because what you’ve seen isn’t her at her worst.

^this.

You can of course tell her ‘no’, but you and DH should know for some DC this will escalate things further and different approaches are needed. Same for raised voices.

It isn't uncommon for families with disabled DC to split up with one parent taking siblings somewhere and the other parent staying at home/accommodation with the disabled DC who can't manage some things.

As a GP of an ND child, clear, firm but fair boundaries have to be put in place and they clearly are doing none of that. For the hitting your DD and for throwing your bag in the pool, had that been me I would have taken her straight back to the room for time out, not said "you cannot say no to her". You can and should, that is clearly why she is so out of control. I feel for you, but it is your holiday too so I would be honest and say you need some time out. God help them as she gets older and even more violent if they do not address it now!

My daughter is 7 and has combined ADHD and can be really hard work. We’ve been on 3 holidays this year and- one with friends who have their own ADHD child (but she behaves differently) and one with family and one on our own. It’s tough. Constant attention seeking and tantrums are very draining but she’s not to the extent of the OP. I do agree routines are key and enough sleep and consequences. I do think you need to tell her off a bit. My friend certainly tells my daughter off when she’s pushed it too far and she seems to listen more when it isn’t me all the time. Is she under an ADHD team and medicated? Medication is starting to work well for us I can see light at the end of the tunnel. Speak to your friend about having some time away on your holiday and make plans for day time and dinner with just your family unit.

Until they start parenting their child properly? I'm appalled at this statement coming from a SEN parent. Similar with the lack of understanding/knowledge that autism presents differently in every person and how complex it is.

However, throwing your bag in the pool and hitting your DD are completely unacceptable and I'm really sorry to hear those things have happened. And I do understand you must have been looking forward to the holiday and this will be ruining it and straining your friendship.

I highly doubt her parents are having a good holiday but believe they are trying their best to stop behaviour escalating. As a PP said, this won't be their DD at her worst. And she'll be hugely disregulated as she's away and with other people. Is she PDA? I wonder if they suggested the joint holiday thinking you might be able to help/support?

If you were at home and not being directly affected by this behaviour and her mum reached out to you for support, what would you do?

I really hope things improve for you (and them) and you get to enjoy at least some of your holiday.

Violence and aggression aren’t part of autism - they’re symptoms of dysregulation associated with an overwhelming environment and lack of structure and boundaries. They are allowing her anxiety to spiral because she has too much control. It’s not ok for them, for her or her siblings and they’re not teaching her anything about how to interact with the real world. I say this as an ND mum to an ND child who can be difficult when dysregulated but would never ever raise his hand to us.

if they can’t keep your family safe then you need to do things more separately. You can still be kind and compassionate but model boundaries to them. Your kids deserve to not be hit.

As a parent of a child with Asd (diagnosed at 4.5 years old, some 30 years ago) there was a great deal of psychological support given to us in the early years. The goal was not to force the child to mask and fit in, but to manage undesirable behaviours. It was a successful strategy in that child had a successful school career (especially in secondary school), some decent exam passes, a 2.1 degree and a responsible job and is living independently.

Itwas my head that was 'fixed' as DC only attended appointments in school holidays. The nub of the advice is to have rules - not many, but rigidly enforced. For instance, not upsetting or hurting other people - so important. In public places (restaurants etc) not being noticeable to others. Infringements were dealt with promptly (removal from situation) with no possibility of return (no behaviour negotiation). Break the rule and you're out. My worst critics were the in-laws who felt that I was unnecessarily harsh and not willing to be flexible (no dirty gloves worn at the Christmas dinner table) but I was well taught. A relaxation of rules and back to square one. No one said it was easy.

Child #2 who turned out being ADHD benefitted greatly from this style of parenting. Psychologists said it was because knowing the rules and sticking to them gives all children the security of knowing what is required of them from a young age and gives them a sense of order in a chaotic world. I suspect that the young person in OPs account is quite anxious and insecure (not her fault) and needs to impose her own control on the world. Hence the behaviour.

One more piece of advice for parents needing to take control of behaviours - it's easier to start to do this when children are young and just deal with one behaviour at a time before tackling another. It isn't easy, but it stands you in good stead for the teenage years when shouting and acting out are much more difficult. We felt that the terrible twos were much worse 😁 Good luck, fellow parents.

For some with autism, aggression and violence aren't only because of a lack of structure and boundaries. For some with autism, structure and boundaries (which some perceive as demands) actually increase anxiety and dysregulation. Every child with autism is different. What works for one doesn’t work for all. So whilst a joint holiday isn’t going to work and, obviously, violence needs to be dealt with, for some DC, ignoring it in the moment is the way to deal with it because it prevents escalation particularly when you have someone judging your parenting.

Simply to make this holiday scenario better you can clamp down on anything that physically affects you?

I know a lot don’t agree but I’ve always found that if I tell off a friends kid they stop. I have never needed to shout or threaten consequences but a simple “You do not treat our things in that way”. “I don’t like swearing so don’t do it around us” etc

Kids weirdly listen when there is absolutely no flexibility (and you’re not their parent). I’ve never lost any friends through it and it makes it much easier because the kids know how to behave at our house or in our presence. (And friendships that would otherwise have fizzled due to it remain good)

Id only ever say something if it directly affects us though, the rest is on them, but I’m not having my kids hurt etc or my things broken.

My guess is your friendship is on borrowed time anyway if this continues so it’s worth a go 🤷🏼‍♀️

It sounds like she has PDA. You could read up a little on what it means and why saying no makes it much worse. I don’t have any advice on how to handle the situation you are in right now though. Must be pretty awful for both sides

Kids weirdly listen when there is absolutely no flexibility (and you’re not their parent).

Some kids. Not all. Every child with autism is different. With some DC your approach would escalate the situation.

As a Mental Health Nurse I agree with is - sounds like she has PDA - very challenging & difficult to manage

Yes the ND child is dysregualated but needs to have proper strategies in place by parents so they feel safe.

hurting other people is a big no no. And they need to put strategies in place now as what will they do when she’s a teenager or adult and hits someone. The police will not accept you can’t tell her no as a defence.

you need to tell them now that you are doing things with just your family as your children are being affected. They can then do what makes their child feel safe. Even if this means staying in their room.

Yep 100% but in this situation the holiday is ruined or will be and the friendships a gonna so there’s a 50/50 chance.

And if it doesn’t work you risk escalating the situation even further potentially causing further violence and aggression and making it a situation that puts everyone at even greater risk.

Oie. Those parents are doing kiddo no favours.

Really doesn’t matter what kid has going on. Behaviour is unacceptable. They can’t be hitting your kid or breaking your things. As someone else said, stand up for yourself and your kid. Don’t leave. Just separate yourself more.

I would just tell them that the arrangement isn’t working and you’ll be doing your own thing each day as far as you can. Get up, and leave the accommodation. Come back late.