I don't PECS is going too well. Advice would be appreciated, thanks

[finefatmama]

PECS was recommended by SALT as DS1 had very limited eye contact and won't imitate for makaton.

My first week if attemoting PECS with non-dairy chocolate buttons went like this:

Button 1 : ds reaches for button, is guided to pecs thingy etc, i say 'chocolate'

Button 2 : ds reaches for button mouths 'tut tut' repeat process and i say 'chocolate'

Button 3 : ds flaps hads and says 'cho kuh' etc

Button 4 : ds looks at pecs, picks it up, examines, throws it away, reaches for button and says 'cho kuh' at which point I'm confused but still carry on with what i was taught.

Butoon 5: ds picks up pecs, throws pec away and looks at button. then walks away

I'm wondering whether I should have focused his attempt to speak at button 4. He regularly examines the pecs and throws them over his head after exchange at button 1. Although i'm tempted to tell him that according to the video and the salt he's supposed to react differently, I think there should be someway to adapt PECS to his reaction especally when he attempts to say stuff. He finally did his 'ready, steady, go!' to some novelty pen with lights and vibration. he'll flap and jump up and down when he sees it and it's out of reach but won't give pecs card to get it. he'll climb up to get it then place it in my hands and say 'go'.

Also we've been told that we move his hand to the card once he reaches for the object but he doesn't reach for most objects. he just stares longingly at them and sometimes at me or dh then the object. i argued with dh it should be possible to make a move at that point because we know he wants the object but he insists that SALT said we should be sitting down and he needs to reach out first. he usually walks away after staring for a while.

I feel like i'm really doing something wrong.

hopefully Moondog (SALT experienced in PECs) will see this one.... General advice about PECs on here is that it's best to do a course run by Pyramid who are the experts in this area.

my experience of PECs as a parent is a bit different to yours, as I was using it to get DS beyond the single word stage, and so DS would point at the PECs symbols on a page in a little communication book we set up for him.

Sorry I can't saying anything more specifically helpful, but I feel it's beyond my knowledge so wouldn't want to hinder you.

I seem to remember that at first with PECs, it required 2 people. One to make him get the card, using a hand over hand approach, and one to immediately provide the reward. Mind you, and I know not everyone on this site agrees, I am not a big fan of PECs and it sounds to me that if your DS is learning to imitate the word "chocolate", then he might start to verbalise rather than use the cards. I spent a year and good money on PECs and it never gave my DS any speech, yet 3 months with an ABA approach and he was using words. What about working on him imitating the word, then waiting to see if he'll supply it without prompting next time you produce choc? I found that once my DS realised that imitating different sounds unlocked different rewards, his speech started to come on. It's still poorly pronounced, and often only I can really understand that "wimmin" means "swimming", but for my DS at least PECs wasn't the answer. I also think some teachers/SALTS are over-literal about it : I saw one boy in an ASD school ask for "juice" quite clearly, yet the teacher made him go back to his desk and get out his PECs book and find the card for juice! What the fxxxxx is that all about!!

well yes that thought also occurred to me amam, as to why bother with the pecs if the OP's boy is saying "chocolate" anyway, but maybe there is some stunningly good reason why both should be used?

We did not have much success with PECS either. It does seem that it is flavour of the month currently which might lead to it being over promoted - although I do know it is very successful for some children. Not knowing much about it, I would agree that if the child can say a word approximation then this should be built on. We built up our DS's language by always giving him whatever he asked for - might not be advisable as a parenting style generally but then he hasn't asked for a nuclear bomb yet. My son also has poor pronunciation but did not need any intervention to actually start speaking as this happened on its own but we feel ABA techniques enhanced the process.

thanks. tbh I was leaning more towards VB but SALT wasn't too keen. she only considered pecs v makaton

hmm I am going on a pecs two day course in May, a year ago it might have felt like something worth doing... reading this makes me wonder if I am doing the right thing.

my ds is more and more verbal as the weeks go by, still not like his peers but his language is imho coming on leaps and bounds... should I look at something other than pecs to help his communication?

PECS can still help kids that are getting verbal. MAybe its not be the best option for children that are already motivated to speak. It can bridge the gap to speaking and also helps later on with the sentence structure.

amam- Fro the training they said that PECS is encouraged until speech can match the level of PECS IYSWIM. So if the boy can ask for juice but couldn't say it in a sentence (but could with PECS) then PECS would be continued until the speech could match the level of speech. At least that's how I understood it anyway.

Finefatmama- there should definitely be 2 people at the beginning to do the routine hand over hand until your DS can do it himself. Have you read the manual? Its very hard to get started without the proper training. If you are doing it with your SALT does she have training? WE tried with SALT and it was rubbish. She didnt really know how to implement it properly and we got nowhere. After going on the course we got to the discrimination phase in weeks. My DS does really well with it but does not imitate the words like your DS.

aefondkiss - IME very worth trying PECs as it may help your DS's sentence structure. After months of him parroting "havva more juice", one week of PECs got DS saying "I want more juice", which has extended to far more complex sentence structure.

A bit of a hijack here - I need some advice about using PECs to extend sentences. DS2 got to sentence level in that he would exchange the strip with 'I want X' on it. He then started asking for the item with a word while doing the exchange. After a while he stopped using the PECS and just used the word instead. Since then he's gained many more single words to ask for things through his ABA programme and very rarely uses PECS now. And that's where we've stuck. The problem has always been that he really wants very few things - his videos, food and a few games - and he can ask for all those perfectly well using one word. When he needs to he can use two - change nappy, lie down, wash hands - but I can kind of see why he doesn't bother to say 'want X' !

But I'm thinking maybe I need to go back to PECS?

Sorry {blush] - if Moondog or anyone comes along please answer OP first!

dh does do the hand over hand bit but since he was told not to do anything until ds reaches for the desired object, we've just watched while he's done everything but reach. today, he kept going for pecs symbol & throwing it away before staring at butons and flapping his hands.

PECs is pure ABA btw so that shouldn't be a conflict. Have you been on Earlybird? Afaik it supports the theory that visual strategies (PECs AND other things) can really help all children with speech/lang difficulties as helps with memory, processing etc. It has been extremely good for my DS although he also uses Makaton. You do need to think about making sure your child has as many communication strategies as possile, esp if they don't develop good/functional language (not just imitation) although at this stage you won't know yet. Definitely go on 2 day course if you are going to continue with PECs. Don't limit yourself to thinking of visual strategies as PECs only though and don't be anti any form of communication if it is functional. SO many children I know can say words, that is not speaking, and they don't have anything to fall back on.

I would be interested to hear more about how to improve sentence construction. DS can say 'I go see garden' but is equally likely to say 'garden' presumably because he knows that is all that is needed.

Just a quick (but obvious) thought on Cyber's question. If he is capable of longer sentence construction then you must heavily reinforce that and not reinforce lesser attempts. Also good prompting would probably work.

Hi finfatmama,
My DS (3.2yrs with developmental delay) uses only single words currently. People here on mumsnet suggested I try PECS to encourage DS to start using short sentences.
I have no experience of PECS so I started investigating on the internet to see how it works.
This clip I think shows a good example of what it works in the early stages:
PECS

agree with Davros. That's how I would do it. A combination of waiting for an attempt at a sentence before doing what DS wants, and/or prompting. e.g yesterday after school - DS "McDonalds!", then me "I want to go to McDonalds", then DS "yes, I want go McDonalds".

Also, have you got the PECs manual? That is definitely worth having.

thank you for the re-assuring advice, it is good to know pecs is worth doing still!