Is rule breaking a symptom of ADHD

[Fififizz]

Is defiance around rules, boundaries, consequences a sign of ADHD? Basically we don’t have many rules, the ones we have are important and yet they still get ignored, broken, rebuffed etc. I find it exhausting. My DS is ND and my friends NT child just does as he’s told. I’m wondering if my DS has ADHD too. He’s got other signs but isn’t wildly hyperactive as flew under the radar with CAMHS. He’s constantly dopamine seeking and in motion either fidgeting, arguing, eating, multi tasking etc. Just wondering if this rule and boundaries breaking is an ADHD thing. He’s difficult to manage, parent etc and all about exactly what he wants to do. Thanks

It can be for some with ADHD. It could also be due to DS’s other ND condition.

Thanks, ASC is the other one. We had an ADHD assessment soon after the ASC diagnosis and CAMHS just said we didn’t meet the hyperactivity threshold and all behaviour is due to ASC. I was sceptical but exhausted at the time so didn’t question it then. At the end of the day no-one wants to collect diagnosis, well I certainly don’t but if understanding can help us parent effectively and stop him getting into trouble at school then it’s helpful. He struggles with task invitation, staying on task, executive function, turn taking, boundaries, sleep, hyperactive in that he’s constantly fidgeting, eating, multi tasking, loud music and phone or tv and phone etc and far worse now in teenage years. According to CAMHS that’s all ASC but after reading I’m seeing there’s a huge overlap and dual diagnosis is possible. Our CAMHS have a narrow view though and still use older diagnostic criteria a version 10 instead of 11. So lots of kids get missed. An EP report flagged up needing testing for both ASC and ADHD. I just want to live in a calmer house and hopefully get him through some GCSE’s….🤷‍♀️

It could be ADHD as well as ASC. Have you considered PDA?

Does DS have an EHCP?

Thanks.,Yes, ASC assessment didn’t mention PDA, the report was pretty vague tbh. CAMHS said not ADHD as not hyper and our CAMHS don’t seem to recognise/diagnose ADD. Trying again with CAMHS as a teen but wait is huge and might refuse another assessment 🤷‍♀️ Yes EHCP.

Not all areas will mention PDA. It is worth looking at low demand strategies if you haven’t already.

Does DS have OT and SALT input? When did he last have an EP assessment.

We do low demand but it’s almost no demand. I feel we haven’t got it right. The few rules we have he pushes, ignores etc. He’s very clever and knows if he holds out things get done for him but his executive function isn’t good so sometimes he can’t do things. He has SALT, OT, Clinical Psych support in his EHCP but is at a specialist setting and they don’t give him everything in one go as it’s disruptive to lessons etc. I should have maybe pushed for the EHCP to be tighter provision wise but school wanted some flexibility and we were at Tribunal so I felt pressured to agree. Whether specialist was a good choice, now I’m not sure. He’s mixing with a smaller cohort and older boys and picking up bad habits but he wasn’t coping in a small independent MS setting so we couldn’t get anything smaller than this specialist setting. His behaviour and manner especially towards me is pretty dire. 🙈

It sounds like you need a review of the EHCP. Potentially a reassessment of needs. If the provision is detailed, specified and quantified in F the school be providing it. If they aren’t email the LA’s Director of Children’s Services, they are ultimately responsible for ensuring the provision is provided.

Thanks, yes. It just feels tricky. School wanted flexibility and coz it was Specialist setting I went with that. The whole LA needs assessment was so poor I’m not doing that again. I know procedurally that’s correct but it’s pointless. By the time it’s finished and I’ve appealed DS will have left. The system’s broken…

EHCPs can continue until 25, or 26 in some circumstances, if necessary, so it is still worth appealing when you next have the right of appeal.

Thanks, I definitely see PDA now you’ve mentioned it, more so in the teenage years. I’ll bear it in mind to appeal. The whole process is such a nightmare though. I went through it to get the EHCP and it nearly finished me off. Even with all the professionals reports etc it’s still not as tight as it could be and I feel things like ADHD/PDA are in the mix but without professionals identifying it or a diagnosis parents don’t get listened to properly. Even specialist setting isn’t quite what it said on the tin. I’m kind of hoping 2 more years hopefully then enough exam points for an apprenticeship or college. Thanks

I think some autistic people struggle with low level rules. Not the big ones, but rules that are meant to help people rub along. Think of it as a continuation of the issue understanding social etiquette, and the issue recognising if others are affronted by what they see as discourtesy or rule breaking. An example might be not eating in the lounge. (A rule we have at my house that our adhd/ASD son routinely ignores). He just can't see the point of the rule and is unable to accept it as a consequence as a barrier to what he wants to do. It doesn't matter to him how much it annoys my OH (who set the rule), because he leaves mess everywhere. His desire to eat in the longe while watching TV always takes precedence. And he feels blocked (and the victim) when we try to enforce it. My daughter who is NT eats in the kitchen for an easy life and because she recognises it matters to OH.

Thanks, that’s really interesting. We have no such rules but I get what you’re saying exactly. The rules we have are around tech use really and bedtime. Apart from that we don’t try as it’s a battle already with devices, I hate them, so we choose our battles. As you describe my DS is also extremely focused on his outcomes, what he needs etc. You could say manipulative but it’s more about the need to self serve I think. Needing a high level of autonomy and the need for control fits him which is PDA I believe but has never been picked up by the many professionals we’ve had assessment from. He’s continually in motion fidgets, eats, listening to loud music, multi tasks likes high adrenaline sports like boxing etc. Now he’s a teen behaviour is pretty dire and I’m flummoxed really. If he has ADHD then it explains some of it maybe but CAMHS just said all his behaviour was due to ASC. Just ordered the explosive child to read but he’s more an explosive teen! 🙈

So an example from thirty seconds ago. My son upset my daughter by taking her last pancake and trying to eat it. She was outraged that he didn't ask for permission. He was outraged that she was outraged because he says he shared something with her yesterday, thus it was fair. It's a rule of social etiquette not to take another person's food, but that was never part of his thinking on the justice of it all. I have had to remind him that it's not okay to take something from someone without permission.

Thanks, I’m constantly on it but your example helps me see I need to keep up with the explanations, reinforcing, on a permanent loop until the point goes in! It’s not helpful that youth/teen boy culture seems so different to when I was young and there’s plenty of misogyny etc. We didn’t understand about Snapchat, Tik Tok etc so I’m reviewing all of that. Difficult to put the genie back in the bottle though now and unfortunately the behaviour at the independent specialist school’s an eye opener! You have a sibling in the mix too so I wonder if you’re ahead of me in seeing the differences in them and the way you need to parent each. This is our normal and I think we’ve made huge accommodations where if we’d had a sibling to consider it wouldn’t have bern fair. I dunno. Parenting is way harder than I ever imagined or expected. Your insight and replies have been really helpful. Thanks