What are you actually supposed to do with meltdowns? I am so lost.

[BertieBotts]

Hello, first post here but I am fed up of the nonsense suggestions on the non-SN boards. DS2 is 5.5. No diagnosis yet, but query ASD/ADHD (my money is on autism but there's ADHD in the family). He has just started speech therapy - communicates fine, but he's delayed in pronunciation, grammar and understanding longer sequences - or at least, he doesn't engage with them. I'm unsure about what he understands, because unless something is on his terms he just doesn't (verbally) engage with it. There are some oddities in his language too.

On his own terms - he's curious and bright and asks interesting questions and comes up with all kinds of stories and ideas. Loves Lego. Makes detailed models and pictures. Loves all things mechanical (especially buses, trains and doors) and all things sparkly, pink and rainbows.

He doesn't go to school yet as we are abroad and he is not of compulsory school age. So he doesn't read or write yet.

The main problem is very low frustration tolerance - he will just go from 0-100 in a second, then he is SCREAMING/roaring, hitting, throwing things, thrashing his legs around. Someone said to me "Some kids seem to go from 0-100 but maybe those kids aren't really starting at 0. Maybe they're hovering around 80 all the time." That would fit him well.

I know about zones of regulation and how to recognise when he's in the yellow zone (ie, he's at that baseline state of 80-ish just waiting for something to set him off) and when I realise he's in it - if you touch him, every single muscle in his body is tensed. He might be verbally stimming. He's also very shouty and demanding and can be quite a wind-up merchant (annoying his brother, high-pitched laughter) in this state, but he doesn't consider himself to be cross/silly (neither word is good but I don't know how to communicate to him that I can see he's ramping up - he doesn't really understand/remember the zones of regulation example). Whatever I say he will just respond "No I'm not!" or if I go straight to suggesting what he might need "I DON'T NEED THE TOILET!!!!!" but will then return to whatever he is doing and appear perfectly fine (except if you know what to look for - the facial expression, the tense body, the explosion when anything goes slightly wrong).

I can't bring him down from that state. Whatever I try to do just makes him more annoyed. I have tried literally picking him up and removing him from the situation and this starts getting him increasingly distressed and panicky until I realise it's absolutely NOT helping so I let him go. I realise I am probably too late with this and I need to find a zone which is...lighter yellow? Any tips on how to recognise that?

I have read so many things but I still feel like I don't know what I am supposed to be doing. I know about sensory processing differences, and I'm sure he has some (though I don't have a good sense of how to work out what his are, or what to do about them). About 2-3 times he has told me "My ears are turned up too loud and there are too many sounds" which I think is good, and I've been able to support him in that situation in reducing sound in the environment or going somewhere quieter. I've dug out some old broken headphones that have a noise-blocking kind of effect, which he can wear if he wants to. I made him a little laminated list of potential body needs (hungry, thirsty, toilet, need to move, need a hug, need quiet, need to do something else) and from this list, which he likes, he will pick hungry, thirsty or toilet but nothing else. I know about the nervous system and fight or flight getting activated. I know that when he is in that stress state, he is not able to access reason or cognitive tools, and that it's all about my body language communicating safety. There has been a big improvement with me getting low, close, quiet and slow as soon as I see meltdown behaviour. DH has also picked up on this and copied me. I know he does better when he has regular, small meals BEFORE he is hungry, some one to one attention, variety in activities, some outdoor time every day, (all of this is exhausting but at least it helps) and when we (adults) can stay calmer. In November we changed his Kindergarten because the old one was too stressful for various reasons - this immediately helped, but the meltdowns are starting to build up again.

I have read Ross Greene and I'm in the B Team group (which drives me quietly nuts even though it can also be useful) so I know about identifying unsolved problems and trying to solve them pre-emptively so that they don't kick off a meltdown but they are all things like "Difficulty giving DS3 a toy when DS3 would like a turn" "Difficulty using pink fork when parent has already given DS3 the preferred white fork" "Difficulty playing trains with DS3 when DS3 knocks a bridge over" so they are difficult to Plan C, and in addition it is difficult to get him to talk about things which have happened in the past. I can do a bit of quick refereeing between siblings in the moment, but always tend to feel I have to speak louder or I get drowned out, and I'm doing a lot of "Hey, slow down, wait, let's just see what DS3 is doing" or restraining him to stop him from lashing out at DS3 (who is 2.5). DS3 has mostly been endlessly patient but unfortunately now has got into a phase where once DS2 pisses him off enough, he will just "flip the table" of whatever they are jointly playing with, which of course devastates DS2 especially if he has spent ages building it. (OK, I think I will try and have a Plan B conversation and just see where it goes).

Anyway I think my main thing is that I am unsure - does the fact he is still having frequent meltdowns (I would say most days at least once, although not every day any more) mean that we are still missing some giant cue of stress that needs to be eliminated? Is the goal zero meltdowns, or just less meltdowns? Is this already "less"? (It's less than it was at the old Kindergarten).

And - are we supposed to be doing something behavioural to encourage different behaviour either in the pre-meltdown state, which I'd already describe as "escalated" or stress behaviour, or in the meltdown itself? For example, earlier DH was taking him out for a walk and he was trying to put his coat on, but something about the coat was bothering him, and he just started screaming about it, I think because DS3 was already opening the door and he was panicking that he needed more time for his coat. I went to kneel down near to him to see if I could help or reassure him that everyone was waiting and he had enough time, and he instantly started telling me to go away, stamping his foot and basically stamped on my knee which was quite painful. I don't know if it was purposeful or not. I just walked away at that point because I obviously wasn't helping, but I also felt a bit cross about the knee and my instinct would have been to say "Hey, you have just hurt me!" and I knew he wouldn't have been able to respond appropriately to that in that moment so it wouldn't help even if I did say that. But then I always think are we doing this totally wrong, I know all the "mainstream" parenting advice would be that he should have a consequence because he hurt someone, and even one of the ADHD pages says basically when they are exploding, ignore in the moment but you get them to take a "brain break" and then apologise and make amends to whoever they have hurt/been rude to once they have calmed down. I never do this because TBH I don't think he even remembers what has happened so I can't see the point of dragging it back up after the walk etc, but then I wonder are we just raising an entitled arsehole if we don't say anything at all?? And maybe it is valuable for him to recognise yes, sometimes I get out of control and I do hurt people but it's important to repair that relationship.

Or if you look at positive behaviourism based resources, they say to identify some common problem behaviour (like shouting, demanding, stamping, hurting) and then identify parts of it to aim to step down, so for example after a meltdown you would then praise them for not hurting anybody, even if they stamped and shouted and demanded and threw things not-at-people, because that's a win/improvement from doing all those things and hurting someone. Or with a points-based system, you'd take quadrants of the day and award points for each part of the day that they managed not to hurt people even if they are angry (but ignore the rest). Does this kind of thing help or is it harmful? I don't currently do anything like this because I'm a bit unsure about whether it's appropriate if they are stress behaviours. But, am also feeling a bit battered by living with so much stress behaviour, sometimes I don't respond to it very well (e.g. shout back) and worrying what effect it's having on DS3 and whether it's just rewiring DS2's brain to go into this kind of thing more readily if we don't try to address it.

Anyway this has taken me about six hours 😳 to write (on and off!) so I'm going to go to bed rather than reply tonight, but would be grateful for any responses.

OK - You don't primarily need tools to de-escalate from the 80% mark at the 80% mark, to solve the overall issue you outlined you have to look at his entire life holistically and try to bring that background boiling point down as low as you can (realistically getting it to 50-60% would help a lot). Then you don't get to 80% that often - because if the water is that close to the top of the pan and boiling, it is going to spit and spill over sometimes into the 100% meltdown no matter how careful you are.

So...you are looking at masking first (school/nursery, extra-curricular clubs, 'playing nicely' with his brother and managing those interactions).
Then demands - which parts of the day is he being told what to do (directly ordered or indirectly required but with a solid expectation of jumping to it behind it). How much autonomy does he have in other parts of his life to balance?
Then sensory - is there anything just wearing away his resilience as a low-key background drain, like leaving the plug out? Include his brother in this! Also his home and school environment, food, clothes, lighting, bathing.

Try improving all those things first and see if it helps. If it fixes things a bit, great (you may need to revisit as he grows). If not, the next step might be Ross Green "the explosive child" (not only good for actually 'explosive' behaviour but all this kind of situation).

@BestZebbie’s post is excellent. Regular meltdowns signal unmet needs and without looking at those unmet trying to DS-escalate meltdowns in the moment won’t be successful. Does DS have any support at kindergarten? Has DS had an OT assessment?

Is there any sibling support where you live?

OP with sensory processing, books like the out of sync child have checklists so you can work out whether your child is over or under sensitive in specific areas. Then it will give activities to help accordingly. I like the out of sync child has fun as it’s easier to digest and very practical. You can also find these checklists online.

You already know a lot and it sounds like what you’ve done has helped these instances reduce already - you answered your own question in that part of your post. Time will also help, he will learn coping skills as he gets older. Does he go to a mainstream school?

There are times and places where you can’t remove all demands or things that will stress him. I think the key is to allow him to do activities that help him regulate in between. So if you know a particular activity is hard, bookend it with downtime - whatever that looks like for him.

And once the meltdown has started, all you can do is ride it out and try and keep everyone safe. There’s no point trying to reason with him, just try to co-regulate.

Thank you. I read and was about to reply now the youngest has woken up. If I don't get back until Tuesday (they have TT day tomorrow) - I do appreciate the info!

OK, this is what we've done to reduce stress so far (over the last 6 months or so)

Changed Kindergarten (play based/nursery essentially), which means:

Shorter day - I pick them up at 1:30-2pm instead of 4pm.
No long commute on public transport at the end of the day - we walk home, and can stop at the park if we want.
More stable staff - the old one had huge staff turnover. Of course, three months in this doesn't matter yet because he hasn't built much of a relationship with the new staff.
Smaller setting/fewer children
Better supervision - there was some bullying at the old Kindergarten and I don't think this was managed well.
(I think in general this has been a huge help).

I take ADHD medication now which helps me with stuff like staying calm/patient/actually using the ideas that I read a million books/listen to all the talks about. I can also spend more focused time with him which is good.

Rather than constantly remind him to go to the loo which he tends to leave until the last minute, I made a laminated sheet he can point to with different physical (including a couple of sensory) needs on it. He will use that to indicate that yes he does need a wee/snack/drink (but nothing else).

I try to build some sensory stuff in to the day but not very consistently and I can't tell if this is helping or not. Actually the two things that he seeks out, which I think must be sensory, are baby/toddler toys which play tunes etc - he'll sit with the toy and just play the songs over and over again. And the other thing is wheels, which he's done ever since he was about 2 - he takes a vehicle and lies on the floor or sits very close to a surface and pushes the vehicle around so he can see the wheels turning. He does this when he is getting overwhelmed or tired. However, if I suggest these things it's not the same - he's not interested.

The other stuff that you said:

We don't do any clubs - I don't understand how other people's children manage clubs so late. Afternoons in general we just don't do anything because he wouldn't handle it - everything has to be very low key. This is a shame as the kindergarten had a visit from a local music club and they told DH that he was really interested in the instruments. I think he would love doing music. Speech therapy is in the morning so seems fine - but we've only been for one session, so can't say.

He plays quite well with DS3 a lot of the time. I know I wrote a lot about their clashes in the previous post, but most of the time this is OK - it's just that's a clearly identifiable "unsolved problem" if that makes sense whereas I think others are more related to general background stress, so less predictable (and maybe less relevant) what actually kicks it off. We are lucky to have enough space that they can play separately if needed and they are generally pretty good at self-regulating here in terms of choosing to play together or alone depending on how they are doing - we do also help with that by distracting one away or I might sit with them and try to referee/problem solve/just slow things down which often helps. But it takes a lot of patience and energy to do this.

Demands is an interesting question because to be perfectly honest, my parenting style is/always has been more autonomy less demands, basically everything is negotiable, take the child's perspective seriously, trust them to make decisions and where there are non-negotiables seek to control the environment not the child. But of course that doesn't mean there is never any implied expectation that something should happen. And DH is more of a traditional mindset that parents are in charge and children should respond when they are directly told to do something (even though he's a massive softy and also very creative/playful at making demands, so it doesn't feel draconian). He establishes more of a routine, which helps DS. With my DS1 (now 15) I was never any good at routine stuff and I think it didn't help him - he used to melt down all the time as well but eventually grew out of it.

I don't know a huge amount about low-demand parenting e.g. for PDA except that it exists, and I'd guess it will differ in some ways than me doing it just as a general parenting style.

In terms of what times of day are there more demands - what really comes to mind is mornings and bedtimes, though honestly, those tend to go quite smoothly, maybe because it's all predictable and routine? It is everything in between - mealtimes and afternoons and when he needs a poo are probably the times he struggles most with demands. There will be clear expectations in Kindergarten of course, but in the country where we live there is also a much better (IMO) understanding of children's need for autonomy and this is seen as very important. They are seen as autonomous, though there is an expectation that they will fulfil communal responsibilities. Generally, DS tended to do well with this at least at the old kindergarten, but again it all depends on his overall stress level (which is a good way to put it).

Sensory/environment I just don't know. I could definitely be less stressy even though I've improved on medication. I have a short fuse for frustration myself. Our house is much more tidy than when DS1 was little but I think DS2 does like it to be tidier than it usually is. This is just going to have to be a work in progress. I wonder also if our home days are just a bit too unstructured? He does like it better if there is a clear plan and he knows what to expect. He already chooses his own clothes and has specific guidelines for these (e.g. no pockets, no buttons). TV is often on in the background. I'm not a big fan of this as I think it overstimulates me, TBH. However DH will generally turn it (or something that makes noise) on. 🥴 (The more I think about this the more I am seeing DH as sensory seeking). Sometimes I have days where I just turn it all off - honestly he's probably slightly worse on these days?

Thanks for the suggestion for The Out of Sync Child. This keeps coming up in all different places so has to go on the to-read list. Especially the version that is more practical and accessible! I feel like a lot of them waste a lot of time explaining that children aren't choosing to "be bad" and I already know that bit and want to skip over it to yes yes OK what to DO about it.

Not in school yet. He is expected to start (mainstream) school in about 18 months. I could ask about OT but it hasn't been suggested yet. I think officially we're supposed to be seeing how he goes with speech therapy and the new Kindergarten. I don't know about sibling support - I don't think so. (What would that consist of?)

I would look at OT. It doesn’t have to be either or with SALT and OT can help with sensory needs and emotional regulation. From your posts DS definitely has unmet sensory needs. As well as the out of sync child book, this booklet and this website are good places to start for sensory needs.

Some DC need more structure. We have a very structured and routine driven home otherwise DSs don’t cope.

If you go down the low demand route, some people find Yvonne Newbold’s resource helpful.

In the UK there are young carers services who can support siblings. The support varies area to area but can include things like emotional support, support social groups, trips out.

Your son sounds similar in many ways to mine (5, awaiting ASD assessment). I’m no expert and haven’t done as much reading as you have but an OT assessment has been very helpful - I knew there was a lot of sensory stuff going on for him, read the Out of Sync Child, but couldn’t quite put the puzzle pieces together myself. Turns out he has quite a “spiky” sensory profile, but the most beneficial thing that the OT stressed is the importance of heavy work. He’s always been calmest digging in a sand pit/ mud/ pushing wheelbarrows around or some clothes in the washing machine (heavy work and visual stimming in one!)

I also find I can sometimes get him to re-regulate by sitting him on my lap, wrapping my arms round him and rocking him side to side whilst we talk through what’s bothering him. I have to do it at the first sign of dysregulation though (echolalia starts, pitch of his voice changes) or he won’t let me hold him.

He is also very routine driven - everything in a particular order each morning - and school holidays are tough when the routine is different.

Thanks all - I think at the end of the week before last when I wrote this OP he was a little bit ill with a cold, which was making things worse. He had been much calmer towards the end of the last week, and then this weekend started to get stressful again but I think I'm getting a sense of what we should do.

It was helpful to explain to DH that when DS is in the midst of a meltdown, even if we have had to remove him to reduce destruction etc it doesn't make sense to try to explain or persuade or lecture - the focus is ONLY to help him calm down - and a funny moment was when I was coming down with the same cold and DH came up to me to give me a hug and did a jokey "infuse health" thing - I said that's it!! That's exactly what we do for DS - infuse calm (by body language/modelling).

Thanks for the sensory resources, I have been looking through those. I think I will definitely ask about OT at some point - I know it's not either or, it's just that I feel like we don't even fit in as much as we should from what the speech therapist has asked us to do with him so I am a bit anxious that doing everything all at once is going to be too much for DS and also too much for us to keep up with so he won't get the benefit of it.

Speech therapy last week was great, she gave him an activity to train certain muscles to help him make a "sh" sound but also suggested that we play Memory in a different way to how we've previously been playing it, to help train memory/focus/attention and play any games with animal sounds, both to help him with making different animal sounds, and also to help train his ear in sound differentation.

I don't think I do really want to lean into low demand/lower demand. My observation (I think) is that he only struggles with demands when his overall stress level is high, and I find when I lean into low-demand stuff I get more permissive and lazy than anything useful. I think in order to do low-demand really well, you have to be quite a goal-driven and creative person and be able to play a longer game and see where you're going with a longer term strategy. I can do the creative problem solving part, but I am not goal-driven and lose track of things like strategy. I think I will definitely bear in mind about him having less capacity for demands when he is stressed, but use this more as a barometer.

Structure definitely helps. I asked him about making plans and he visibly relaxes when he can make a plan and he has a fairly clear idea that the plan will happen. Even if the plan later has to change, it doesn't throw him so much - knowing that there was a plan and it has changed because XYZ seems to help.

This is interesting too, because it reflects something I have realised about myself. When I have a lack of structure, I default into actions that I don't really want to be doing and which I feel bad about. Whereas if I make a decision about what I want to do, I don't always do exactly that thing, but I will at least do something that in general, I feel better and happier about within myself.