Speech delay - do you think I'm deluding myself to think that...

[emkana]

... as ds is pointing, playing imaginatively, responding to things like "go and get a book" and to some extent vocalizing/making sounds, I can be confident that he will speak one day?

Sorry to bring this up again, but I'm just not sure what to expect/think.

em - since he is communicating so well, it sounds hopeful that he is just a "late talker". It's not that unusual for some kids not to start properly getting going with speech till just before 3. Has your DS got any physical issues with using his mouth - e.g. finding sucking through straws difficult? If so there could be some physical difficulty with him making speech sounds, whilst his understanding of language is absolutely fine (google apraxia/verbal dyspraxia).

How old is your DS Emkana? Those things all sound like positive signs.

It bodes very well indeed for the development of communication, if not necessarily speech. Noone can make predictions about speech but based on what you say there is huge potential for a formal communication system of some sort which includes the possibility of speech.

Does this make sense?

Sort of, moondog. What would that mean in practice though?

He is nearly 21 months now.

It sounds very promising to me. If he can respond to a spoken instruction to get a book and he is still only 21 months it sounds pretty normal.

Your ds sounds amazing Emkana, he is doing extremely well.
I don't really know much about speech development, or about your ds, but I have friends who's ds's didn't start talking till around 24 monthsish, one of them at 2 and a half years. I bet you have heard all that before
He sounds as though he is doing very well.

What it means is that even in the worst case scenario of him not developing speech at all (highly unlikely) he should still be able to use a formal symbolic communication sytem such as PECS or signing.

That is highly unlikely to be the case however.

What it means is that even in the worst case scenario of him not developing speech at all (highly unlikely) he should still be able to use a formal symbolic communication sytem such as PECS or signing.

That is highly unlikely to be the case however.

Emkana, oh Emkana, how i was in your shoes 3 years ago.

My boy did not say a "real" word till he was 3.6 years old. But even before that we never lost faith that he would speak, even when everyone around us was so intent on believing he would not speak.

Your child is still a baby and has so much growing to do. Is there anything physically that is preventing him from using his mouth, voicebox, tongue, etc?

If not then there is no reason why he will not speak.

If you enter down the "pecs" and makaton road, you have made (or others have made) a value judgement about your child, that he will not speak. I personally despise pecs mostly because the teachers/persons using it, dont know how to use it, dont know how to phase it out, etc etc. But moreso i despise it because it is part of a belief system that our children may not talk, so hey, lets give them a few pictures.

We fought for a year with our SLT (who was useless) about Pecs. I wouldnt allow them to be used at school and certainly didnt use them at home. We spoke to our child and presumed competence, that it was only a matter of time before he would speak. If he cried we asked him to try and verbalise what he wanted, even if it was only one syllable or even if he just pointed to something.

I personally feel pecs holds our children back and makes it easy for teachers to "handle" our children in school because they DO NOT have the time or inclinination to give our kids what they need 1:1 full time attention.

opinionated me?

Really start thinking about what others think about your child's difficulties and why they arent doing all they can to elicit speech, not cards, not sign language but real verbal back and forth communication. It starts with developing eye contact and motivatoin for the child to speak.

pecs will never NEVER develop functional communication, it only provides a means to an end, i.e. a way for the child to "get" something. I despair at the number of children who grow to adults using pecs when they could have developed speech if they were given the right amount of time, love and understanding.

Oh heavens do I disagree!!!!
My DS had lost all speech at 20 months. We started PECs with him as a means to ratchet down his huge frustration and to help him understand that communication is an exchange.

He used PEcs from 2 1/2 until his speech began to come back at four. we gradually reduced it over the next few years and he does not use it at all now. He still has speech difficulties but that is linked to his ASD and his oral dyspraxia and is reducing.

He is totally understandable now and is only hampered by his tendency to talk in script and his inability to grasp some abstract concepts.

PeCs/makaton probably was one of a few things that has resulted in a healthy happy child rather than the self harming little boy that was destined for residential care before he was five.It was life changing for us.

And actually PECs was one of the instrumants used by us and his teachers when we were lavishing him with time love and understanding.

Opinionated by all means and probably accurate in some cases - but in our case you couldn't be more wrong.
I only post - not to be argumantative but to illustrate that your negative experience/understanding of PECS is not universal and if someone feels that PECs is being used as a tool to promote speech rather than a convenience then their instincts may well be right to use it

(emkana, will try and email you this evening) BUT - 20 months is still young for speech. The understanding is the key thing I think. x

Our boy had no speech, pecs was of no interest, he was not a "visual" child, more aural.

I take your point, and its great that it worked for you. I suppose i should have qualified my comments by saying that the blanket use of pecs is unacceptable, but i still personally believe that pecs is underpinned by a particular belief system.

even though my boy could not speak one word, i knew instinctively it was not going to benefit him in the long run and unfortunately seeing the way pecs is used in so many schools that we visited, it would have been a complete disaster.

Mamadadawahwah

My experience of PECS was almost identical to yours in that it was a complete failure for our then 2.6 DS. I felt there was no hope for him as he could not even learn to use PECS. Like your DS, he started to speak at 3.6 and now although he is nowhere near age appropriate, he can ask for his basic needs and is starting to comment more and more on the world and to answer questions. However, I am sure PECS is useful for many children as this comes out of so many personal accounts but it's not for every child. Some ASD children are non verbal whereas others have severe delay so if ASD is suspected, some 'injury time' needs to be factored in before concluding that PECS is the appropriate therapy.

I understand Mama and I agree with you about PECs often being used inappropriately. I also agree that it is not the blanket system that will always help all children - absoloutely not. I do understand where you are coming from and it sounds as though you have been the best advocate for what your son needs.

I bristled though at

" if you enter down the "pecs" and makaton road, yopu have made ( or others have made) a value judgemant about your child, that he will not speak"
and
"pecs will never develop functional communication"

The first is highly judgemental and the second is nonsense. No one using PECS with my son had any intent other than to ease his frustration and assist him in understanding communication and through that, speech. And the proof of the pudding as they say...

You were able to deal with your sons tears when he was frustrated. My son would bite his arm until it bled or beat himself against the wall or attack me. Believe me PECS saved my son. And whilst I know this is not the case here I would hate a mother in the same situation as me to refuse PECS on the grounds that it was giving up on their child.
All our kids are differnt and PECS is not a cure all but neither is it always either useless or damaging.
Depends on the child and their needs.

Its interesting though isn't it that we both intuitively knew what our children needed and that we were both right for our sons - even though our views were the exact opposite. They should leave this stuff up to us all the time shouldn't they

Yes, PECs isn't for all kids with ASD - as some aren't visual learners. However I strongly disagree that PECs will never develop functional communication. PECs has a role for some verbal kids with delays. After a week of PECs, instead of asking "havva more juice" by rote, DS could say "I +want +more +blackcurrant juice", and see the separate elements which made up that request, which has led on to all sorts of more sophisticated requests and longer sentences. I really wish I had started PECs sooner with him.

I use Makaton with Ds1 and, whilst I don't do formal PECS with him I do also use pictures and objects to help explain things. I use verbal speech as well all the time. All these elements have been wonderful at helping him communicate and understand.
I made the decision to help him with alternative means of communication because of my own experiences. I have always had good receptive language but have a lot of difficulty initiating talking (not impossible but very hard, I often have to rehearse even simple things in my head over and over and often the words stay stuck in my mind). People presumed that because I could talk (and still talk) that if I wasn't asking for something or telling people about things that meant I didn't want anything. I only wish that was the case.
Whilst I encourage verbal speech with Ds1 I am grateful that others recognise there are alternative means of expression if verbal speech, for whatever reason, is difficult.

Mamadadawahwah

I'm inclined to disagree. DS1 has always had a pretty good vocabulary - at 3 we felt he had a word for everything he needed a word for and a lot more besides and at home, he was putting words together spontaneously as well as using echolalic speech to describe a situation.

However, he had no concept of asking for things he needed, though. If he was thirsty, he'd roll on the floor and scream in frustration by the kitchen door, even though he knew how to say words like drink and juice. Worse still, he was pretty much mute at nursery.

By the time by the time the SALT saw us, we had trained him to say "you want a drink of juice" and he used it or similar phrases occasionally, but still didn't see the importance of expressing his needs. The SALT decided to try him with PECS and they crystallised the whole idea of expressing his needs. He realised it was easier to vocalise what he wanted than to look for a card. I also used them to teach him to make either or choices, since he typically wanted everything or nothing and ended up melting down. Choosing a card helped him to get the concept of this or that much better than two mouthwatering snack items in front of him ever did.

His therapy transferred to the school setting after the summer holidays and after about a month he thawed and started talking there, after almost 8 months of nursery. We all felt he'd been overwhelmed by the noisy, busy surroundings and that taking the pressure to speak off him helped him to relax and organise himself better. Nobody was underestimating him.

Hi Emkana. We like Makaton. DD, 19 mths, doesn't point or appear to understand what language is for, and has no speech or even babbling yet, but has learned to sign 'hello' (OK, she did it twice last wk). I think it's helpful to have one clear sign for everyday events. I don't think Makaton will prevent her from learning to speak. But it will help her learn to communicate.

Gosh emkana he's still pretty young. DS2 didn;t speak properly until just short of 3. I never worried about him at all though as he was doing all the things you list. I thought he might have a speech productions problem e.g. verbal dyspraxia (which he didn't as it happens) but that didn't worry me too much.