Autistic 4 year old - a few behavioural Queries

[Sillymummies123]

Hi,

Our four year old is not diagnosed but is old enough now for what we and the paediatric consultant perceived to be autistic traits to be really very apparent. We've been on an odyssey the last few years from mistakenly trying to discipline out violent behaviours to a general holistic approach to kindness, patience and a focus on calmly talking through problems and modelling better approaches.

There are a couple of behavioural issues that are really upsetting us (and our child, no doubt). I thought I'd check in for any specific advice.

I suppose these stem from an inability for him to realise that "what we say goes" - is that common to autistic people? He has a very firm sense of right and wrong, and, for example, the sun is up, so it's morning, has been a common fight (we don't fight, we calmly tell him it isn't quite time to get up yet) for this past month, but he shouts at us angrily NO ITS MORNING GET UP.

If he's capable of learning rules through patterns, then how do we teach him the rule that we're experienced grown ups who are in charge?? I realise this sounds quite dominant. I'm absolutely not looking to dominate his life, impose strict rules, put him in that environment, but it is exhausting and upsetting to be constantly told we're wrong (when we're right) and it extends particularly painfully when we're trying to teach him a life skill or correct his maths (he loves maths, but obviously errors). It is also exhausting snd upsetting to not have the trust of your child. Hes very intelligent, already academically able, but the limit on his learning skill is and always has been melting down at the slightest whiff of us trying to teach him something. He also constantly parrots us and reprimands his younger sister, and I feel for her being constantly shouted at (we don't shout, but he does), and made to feel sad for existing.

Is there anyway we can get him to trust us to the extent that that trust overrides rules he has misperceived about the world?

You don't.

You do model imperfection, and failure and show him it is ok to make mistakes and to look silly. It's about building a growth mindset.

You are setting him and yourselves a mammoth task. There is a world of difference between his ability to rote learn, see patterns, remember facts etc and understanding that you are “ in charge “ Decide on the non negotiables such as rules to keep him and his sister safe and back these up with visual reminders and consistent language.

Listening to and following instructions involves so many processes including language and processing skills. Some autistic children may have a lack of awareness of hierarchy in school.

Even if you teach a specific rule or skill in your household your child may be unable to transfer this skill or remember what to do if stressed or having a meltdown.
As SusieP says learning that it is ok to make mistakes is an important factor in life but one that lots of adults struggle with so a longer term goal.

You are right to identify a couple of things to tackle at once.
Observation and recording is often a good start e.g. when and where does he shout at his sibling and what is the consequence for him. If for example he shouts if she touches his toys and you move her away from him, that is a result for him.

When you say “parroting” you this could be delayed echolalia.
A basic social story about trying not to shout at his sister may help. Consistent approach and language should also help e.g.
“Mummy tells x what to do” “quiet voice”
” no thank you “

Re sleep purchase a sleep training clock. There are retro ones where a rabbit on a clock face opens his eyes at a preset time to get up. There are digital versions link below.
Leave some early morning activities in a box in his room.

https://www.johnlewis.com/tommee-tippee-groclock-sleep-trainer-clock-night-light/p5851628?s_ppc=2dx92700070985443024_mixed_fashion_BAU&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrubHioaBgAMV0cvtCh0vDwuOEAQYAyABEgJkqPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

The problem isn't that he can't recognise that you are right and he is wrong. The problem is that he can't cope with being wrong. And the more you try to reinforce adulthood as being right the worse that gets. Modelling failure and showing that everyone fails and it's ok can really help.

This is such an interesting question, about how behaviour, personality traits and autistic traits intermingle. I don't have any good answers but am interested in the responses. I too have a 4yo who is "difficult to teach", as in, he's already got his mind made up on how to do a given thing and seems to block out our suggested alternatives. He's clearly intelligent (though not doing maths yet - that's so impressive! Good for him!) as he still seems to manage to find solutions without the benefit of taking in other peoples' advice and experience 😂

His sense of humour also seems to be based on startling us and subverting authority (i.e. he thinks it's hilarious to make me jump by pretending to eat play doh, to insert the wrong word in the title of a book, etc). It's adorable and I applaud his confidence in the face of authority, but it also seems to be an extension of his general self-directed approach to life.

I tend to agree with @SusiePevensie 's advice - I think this may be about modelling behaviour, and being open to supporting DS to navigate the world on his terms, while he is so young and building confidence and capability is so important. For me (while DS is so young) it's about forming a little team together, so he views me as an ally rather than an obstacle to his goals, that will be how to bridge the gap between an NT adult and an ND 4yo - though I may eat my words when DS is teenager!

Thank you your words! It's so confusing isn't it. And 4 is such a time of change, both socially and with school! I agree- we used to battle so much for control, but about a year ago when life and relations were hell we decided to be on his side. Boundaries are still there, but they're boundaries that exist for tangible reasons, not arbitrary boundaries ("Eat all your dinner etc.").

When he's told "!no" by us and meltdown, I generally get down to his level, calmly express empathy, we talk through his emotions, I ask him if its a "disappointed", he'll generally cry and say "yeaaaas", and I'll sympathise. A year ago, he would have been hitting us, kicking us, finding something he perceived as valuable and throwing it, shouting "I BROKE THAT".

Your son reminds me a lot of our possibly ASD 3.5 year old. And yes, a disregard of authority and a sense that one's own way is the only way can be autistic traits. There's a reason my husband, who is autistic, is self employed!

We've been seeing a psychologist for advice on strategies and one she suggested that does work is starting suggestions with a casual, "I wonder if..." or "I wonder why you..." It takes the heat out of things a bit and our son is more responsive because it's not such a perceived correction.

My son has done really well with a sleep training clock, so second that recommendation.

I also try to model mistakes, and pick my battles about what to correct. And I try to remind myself that "compliance" isn't a trait I value in adults.

Hiya. Our 5 Yr old son has HF autism /aspergers, he is just the same - a beautiful, super smart kid, but often totally stubborn/defiant unbowed by parental authority and difficult to convince that anyone else's opinion is correct, if opposed to his own. On practical issues (eg getting his clothes on, going to the loo before school, etc ) where he would refuse, we often have found distraction the best approach rather than direct confrontation- basically the more ridiculous/stupid a suggestion, the more likely he'll laugh, talk about that, and let you help him put his shoes on...and by repetition end up getting better at stuff. Or turn it into some weird puzzle game, tather than something he's being told to do. His big sister, for a while, told him to do the complete opposite to the thing, to get him to do it - such is his love of being contrarian.

Argh. You guys are amazing. Whatever help I may need/seek, whatever days I may end up in tears from the additional stress of this whole thing, actually knowing that it's autism, not a failure on my part to stop hitting, rage outbursts etc., has actually been so validating..

Thank you for the sleep clock recommendations!!!! I have been looking for one for ages, but tried all combinations of searches on amazon which failed to find it! "SLEEP CLOCK" apparently I forgot to write

Ok.... any advice on the sleep clock? We're a few days in and it's just a fight. We introduced it, he totally understands that it's not morning unless the owl is awake and turns orange.

However, he's just like, "no. It's morning. I'm not tired"

Thoughts?

Your son sounds like mine. He’s 7 now. We have made some progress.

Sounds like you’re doing great.

Sleep clock we binned. It was just another form of authority he didn’t agree with as his view that sun = morning was unshakable so he just switched off the clock each day. Sorry. We went for blackout blinds, blind + curtains to make every room super dark. In the summer we go to bed early ourselves understanding the days start early and take turns getting up like with a newborn.

In terms of your broader ‘how can we get him to respect our authority’, like others say i think you are setting yourself an unachievable goal. If autistic kids could learn that stuff in the same way they learn patterns, there would be no such thing as autism. I get that it’s maddening though.

We have moved to just taking battles one at a time. So sleep = blackout blinds. Schoolwork we don’t correct at all and figure out he’ll work it out as he gets older. General rules and day to day stuff, a mix bag of distraction and deflection as a straight out ‘no’ is likely to cause a meltdown. It’s hard and draining but gets us through and year by year we see progress

Hmm. Specifically on the sun = morning thing might books about the science of sleep help. This one perhaps?

https://usborne.com/gb/very-first-questions-and-answers-what-is-sleep-9781474940108

Or books about the solar system.and how the earth moves and why days are shorter in summer.

Sounds like he needs a visual chart and a social story.
Rather than morning link the time to get up time.

Make a get up time chart and set targets e.g.
First week 2x stay in your room til get up time and gradually build up to 5 then 7
Use language like I bet you can’t stay in your room twice til get up time this week? Use tokens rewards whatever motivates him.

Have you used social stories before? There are books and model ones online ( Carol Grey)
The best ones are bespoke and structured in a certain way using particular language.
You an use language he understands and pictures or photos and make a book or laminated card e.g.

My name is x and I like to get up early in the morning.

Usually it is dark at night and light in the morning. Lots of people are still in bed when it is light in the morning because it is not time to get up.

I have got a new Owl clock in my room. It tells me what time to get up ( or add time if he’s good with numbers)

When my owl clock says it is time I can get up and leave my room. My day can start

I will try to stay in my room until get up time
My parents ( or whatever he calls you) will be pleased when I do this. Grown ups need sleep so they are not tired.

You can adapt. You would share the story at a calm time to reinforce

You could also take a photo and make a visual for the wall of the clock face colour/ image captioned get up time

Give things to do if he’s awake before get up time.
This could be built into the story.
You could try books about day and night morning routine etc.

Carol Gray oops

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Social-Stories-Carol-Abbie-Leigh/dp/1853029505/ref=asc_df_1853029505/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=311004742540&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14946496322233261491&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046606&hvtargid=pla-564939886065&psc=1&th=1&psc=1