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Gestalt Language Processing

44 replies

Buttercup1999 · 05/06/2023 21:41

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping you can help me understand more on language processing.

Is it possible to be both an analytical language processor and a gestalt language processor?

I think my son uses both ways of learning language. He is 2yrs 9months and started talking using the usual words, mama, dada, yum yum, animals sounds etc. Then moved on to 2 and 3 word sentences etc. 'More juice please' etc. He does however have alot of learned phrases as I call them although he uses them in the correct context, 'bye bye see you later' 'so cute' 'maybe later' and many more. They are phrases he has learned from us, nothing from TV programmes or books etc. He does still repeat alot of what we say, immediate echolalia but it's nearly like he banks it in his memory to use for again. He does talk in the third person which I understand is common in GLP. Also he love music and sings songs all the time. He has started to answer questions too and understands well. He just doesn't seem to acquire language as naturally as my daughter did and I'm quite stressed although grateful he's able to communicate.

Does GLP always mean autism also?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

OP posts:
NewMum118 · 16/06/2023 18:48

Hi,

I am in the same boat. My DS 2 years 5 months has been developing language similarly. He has met most of his milestones , so to speak. Spoke single word by 12 months. His first wors was "eat" and he used to utter it everytime anybody ate at the table :). 15-20 months he added lots of words in his vocabulary. Started using a sentence by age 2. Only two sentences, he heard in a Miss Rachel video. "I See..." He would keep saying " I see 'whatever was visible to him' including " I see mamma" " I see dadda" all the while pointing at the object or person and making eye contact ( that really got my hopes up" ) He recently said "want milk" when he wanted milk.

But that's about it. His speech development has not had a lightbulb moment yet. You can't have back and forth conversations with him. Lots of repetition of phrases. He would say "wheel bus " and point at wheel and bus.

I have always been confused as to even if he is meeting is milestones he seems behind his peers. His receptive language is good as in if I ask "where is " question he would look at the object or person and point at it.

I am wondering how can I help him

openupmyeagereyes · 16/06/2023 20:57

My ds is now 9 but he did both too. He developed language in a typical way, albeit it didn’t explode in the same way as his peers, and he also had a lot of echolalia too - phrases from books and TV programmes. He had lots of his story books memorised. He would use these chunks of language both in context and not. He also reversed pronouns when he was younger.

The echolalia eased off from 4 onwards and his own language continued to develop, he’s very verbal. He still uses echolalia now but it’s largely only in excitement.

He was diagnosed as autistic just before he turned 4, but I don’t know if this is always the case with GLP.

openupmyeagereyes · 16/06/2023 20:58

Hanen’s More than words is a great resource for developing communication. It’s pricey but a big book and much cheaper than private SALT.

Buttercup1999 · 16/06/2023 21:27

Hi @NewMum118 and @openupmyeagereyes

Honestly it's just reassuring to hear that someone else's child does both because I can find nothing online about a child doing both, it's either one or the other.
I do see some other small traits that could point towards autism in my son so I think I'm just a bit in denial maybe.
My son def seems behind his peers @openupmyeagereyes. At home it seems as if he's doing ok then you see him alongside another child his age and there is a noticeable difference. Breaks my heart to be honest.
Do you remember what other signs your son had that pointed towards autism before his diagnosis? How is he doing now? My child also reverses his pronouns! How have you found the autism journey yourself? Sorry for all the questions lol!
@NewMum118 my sons receptive language is also good. And he can definitely tells us what he wants and doesn't want. Back and forth conversation isn't really there either, I mean I can ask him a question like 'what were you doin today?' He will give me and answer but would never expand, such as 'went to tesco' when my daughter was his age she would have said 'went to tescos and we got bread and milk etc'
It's very confusing isn't it whether they are where they are supposed to be or not. Have you any other concerns?

OP posts:
Rhubarblin · 16/06/2023 22:20

My daughter is both, she is 5 and does have autism though.
Reverse pronouns was one of the first signs really. She generally gets I/you/we pronouns now, muddles up he/she though.
She's in mainstream school and doing well, her speech is behind but we can have decent conversations. She had no back and forth conversation for a long time and could never describe anything from the past. Mini conversations started at age 4, now she tells me all about her day at school.

Her other autism signs were obsessive interests, lining up toys, chewing, her stim was rubbing behind her ears. There's definitely more but it's been a long day, I've posted quite a lot about her before though.

Buttercup1999 · 16/06/2023 23:05

Hi @Rhubarblin
I definitely think I'm in the denial stage of it all. My son has in the past week or 2 started to line up random little sets of toys, usually his cars, he usually says, 'look mammy all lined up' when I ask him why they are lined up he says, 'on a rescue' like the paw patrol pups. He doesnt do it all the time though, plays pretty 'normally' most of the time. Maybe get one to twos lines in a day lol. He doesn't seem to have any obsessive interests but maybe he does and I don't class them as obsessive, at this point I'm not sure what's what anymore, I've watched him so closely for so long.
How did your daughter interact with yourself, any siblings etc around the 2/3 age mark?
I bet its lovely having little conversations with her about her day, I look forward to it so much. At the same time I'm so grateful for what he can do at the moment too.

OP posts:
Rhubarblin · 16/06/2023 23:44

She was in a bubble really. Your DS's speech is way better than my DD's was then, her big problem was hardly any functional language / no back and forth. She was obsessed (and still is) with drains 😂, their interests are often unusual ones. She very much played alongside big sister, now they play fight - DD5 calls her a "poo poo head" and jumps on her (my eldest is a teen and 5ft 3", so can handle her 😅). Her personality has come out a lot more now.

Interestingly the lining up started at just over 2.5 for DD, the pronoun thing too. Other things that I've remembered are trouble with transitions and putting her hands over ears too.

I think for only being 2 still, he's doing great, I'm sure the progress in a year or two will amaze you too.

Buttercup1999 · 16/06/2023 23:57

Hahaha! Sibling love eh? 🤣 she sounds like a real wee character and a complete joy!
I have a 4 year old daughter too and they adore each other. Well when i say adore, they play together, cuddle etc and then are at each others throats the next minute. It is quite funny to watch though as she will say sit down, he does it, stand up, he does it, go over there, he does it etc he's like her wee puppet on a string, he copies absolutely everything she does and says! Lol.
Sometimes I wonder if he has more traits and symptoms it's just that we have become so used to them and have things in place for them that we don't even realise. He doesn't seem to have trouble with transitions at home but if he was at nursery or school it may be different. Time will tell I suppose.
I'm just eager to have an insight of what's ahead for him and noone knows, even for a NT child noone knows how things are going to be either.
How have you coped with your little girls diagnosis?
Thank you so much for replying, it is lovely to talk to other people in similar situations.

OP posts:
Rhubarblin · 17/06/2023 00:11

It actually sounds like he is interacting a lot, having a close-in-age sibling is very handy for social skills.

I was glad to get her diagnosed as the wait was over, it explained a lot and helps other people understand too.

The transitions thing happened everywhere from very young, we used to leave toddler group early as she would get so distressed watching everything go away. As a newborn she would get horrific sensory overload from being too busy/seeing too many people.

NewMum118 · 17/06/2023 02:16

My son does not have any other signs. He was late to point but that's it. I have not had an assessment but his social referencing, pretend play all emerged on time. He likes to share food with us.If he is having a cookie he would come to us to make us have a bite. Makes us drink water from his imaginary cup. Cooks food in pretend toys (whatever he can find) and feeds us. All this emerged on time. If he finds a stranger interacting with him he would look at my face and then proceed to interact. But he is shy and does not want to go to strangers often.
He started imitating gestures at 9-10 months too. He knows the name of one of his peers and if asked where he is he would point to him.
He also initiates play with us. He would make us sit in circles and ask us to clap by modelling himself. If we don't clap , he would take out hands and make us do it (that's a bad one i know ) but he makes eye contact all the while. He also plays duck duck goose and ringa ringa rosies.
My only worry is this language development and that he is too active. Does not listen to me when I call out his name many times. His name response also was fine u gul he started running a lot.
But if I am standing infront of the mirror holding him and ask him where is "his name" he would point to himself.

He recognises colors and points to them when asked to identify individually. He can sort shapes also. All this from age 2.

I am writing all this detail as there are any experienced Moms on this forum. Do you think all the above are positive signs.

NewMum118 · 17/06/2023 02:35

@Buttercup1999 if he is lining up toys and showing you his work then it is not the same as obsessive line up. You can go through other posts here, lots of kids especially boys do that.

openupmyeagereyes · 17/06/2023 09:45

Buttercup1999 we had a number of concerns about speech and language that prompted me to take him to a SALT drop in clinic at 3.6yo. They were:

  • reversed pronouns
  • no back & forth conversation
  • didn’t ask questions, he did this in a roundabout way
  • echolalia
Despite these he was verbal and his receptive language was good.

Other concerns were:

  • not always answering to his name (hearing test was normal)
  • lack of joint attention, though he pointed fine
  • Learned to wave around 8 months, did it for a weekend and then not again until he was two.
  • dropped almost all the foods he ate at 2yo, still has the same restricted diet.
  • just didn’t like the same sorts of things as other kids, rhyme time, play groups etc. He’d just want to do his own thing and leave early.
  • In general he just seemed more immature than his peers.
Ds has become more obviously autistic as he’s got older because his stims are more obvious. The S&L issues mostly resolved but you can tell the difference between him and a NT peer. For instance you can largely only have an extended conversation about his own interests but he’s very chatty.

He was in a mainstream school with 1:1 support but Covid had a big impact and he’s now in an autism specialist school but not yet attending full time.

He’s our only child so it’s easy for us to adjust life to suit him better. He has his difficulties but he’s amazing and gets to things in his own time.

NewMum118 · 17/06/2023 09:53

@openupmyeagereyes i am curious. Why did you have concerns around his joint attention when he pointed fine? I thought that is the biggest indicator of joint attention.

openupmyeagereyes · 17/06/2023 09:57

Joint attention is not the same as pointing, it’s sharing an experience with another. For instance child points to a plane in the sky, says ‘plane’ and looks to see if you are also looking at the object. It’s not the same as being asked ‘where’s the dog’ and they point to it.

openupmyeagereyes · 17/06/2023 09:59

He does have joint attention now but it was lacking in his early years. When he was about 18mo we took him to a zoo and he’d look everywhere else than where we were pointing out the animals.

NewMum118 · 17/06/2023 12:01

Understood. So even pointing does not rule out autism. My son has always followed a point and that's how I have taught him most words. But he points to share interest lesser than his peers. I guess at his age we would not really know.

openupmyeagereyes · 17/06/2023 12:30

No, it doesn’t rule it out. But there will be other concerns, it’s just part of it.

Autism is diagnosed as differences in social communication and rigid and repetitive behaviours to the extent that they ‘impair’ everyday life.

Yesterday I was with a friend who has a dd who is 3.11. She is very different to how ds was at that age.

Buttercup1999 · 17/06/2023 18:18

@Rhubarblin he Interacts so well with his sister, us, grandparents etc. Also other adults and is starting to want to play with other children now too.
It's such a long process isn't it? We are on the waiting list and I've filled in the initial paperwork but have heard nothing from our assessment team since. That was 6months ago.
@NewMum118 your son sounds very like ours, he was/is the same with everything you mentioned. He sounds full of fun and lots of energy. Loves to play hide and seek with us and his sister and ring a rosie etc Nothing about how you describe him would particularly worry me, he's still so young.
@openupmyeagereyes your son sounds amazing as you say and you are obviously very tuned in to what he needs and to help him flourish! All we want is for our babies to be happy really don't we? 😊
The pointing/joint attention always confuses me. I've looked back through every photo and video in my phone as I honestly can't remember when he started pointing, it was definitely before 2 but how far before 2 i dont know. In the videos between age 1 and 2, if somethings happening you can see him look at it and then look at me or his dad etc but I don't remember him pointing to show us something at an early age. He did however point at something if we asked him where something was etc
Can you tell my head is spinning with all the wondering etc 🙈 he is on the assessment list as a precautions so time will tell I suppose. All that being said he is a boisterous, fun loving, kind and affectionate little boy 💙

OP posts:
Seasonofthewitch83 · 06/07/2023 15:54

Hi OP

I have only just learned about gestalt despite DD being in speech therapy for a few months now. She def seems to have both - she can construct her own short sentences but absolutely also learns a 'line' and uses that every time with little variation.
DD does not stim - no obsessive interests, no lining toys, no finger movements. Her assessment said you would never notice her in a crowd of children as being neurodiverse. She loves other children and shows an interest in them, likes to hold hands with them etc. Does imaginative play although doesnt really verbalise the play. She also does not talk at nursery etc.

We have another set of speech therapy sessions and I will ask about gestalt and report back if children are capable of both.

Buttercup1999 · 06/07/2023 20:33

Hi @Seasonofthewitch83 thank you for your reply.
Your DD sounds so similar to my son, and absolutely lovely. Did she get a diagnosis if she doesn't do any of those things?
It's all so confusing. Thanks in advance for enquiring with the speech therapist.

OP posts:
NewMum118 · 07/07/2023 01:34

@Seasonofthewitch83 how old is your DD? She really does not even sound neurodiverse. Especially if she does imaginative play. Unless it is a masking technique for copying other kids. But i suppose it is not. I think you should get it probed further.

Seasonofthewitch83 · 07/07/2023 11:41

Buttercup1999 · 06/07/2023 20:33

Hi @Seasonofthewitch83 thank you for your reply.
Your DD sounds so similar to my son, and absolutely lovely. Did she get a diagnosis if she doesn't do any of those things?
It's all so confusing. Thanks in advance for enquiring with the speech therapist.

I always knew something wasnt quite right with her speech and knew she was delayed so at her two year HV check we were referred for NHS SALT but were warned it was around a year wait and we may find she catches up anyway.
Between Octoberish - January she did start to copy a few basic phrases that were always the same e.g 'Planes where are you?' But could not break the sentence down or say it in a different way e.g 'Where are the planes?'. She also then picked up quite an extreme noise sensitivity to other children especially.

She knew hundreds of nouns but never volunteered to say them. For example in a board speech book I could say 'Show me the tractor' and she could point, and then we moved to 'Whats this?' And she would say 'Tractor' but she didnt sit with the book talking aloud without me prompting her.

She then had a big burst of development around 32 months including sitting talking in her own little babble language and narrating some of her actions, always in the same manner 'In in in! pour it in! oh wow!' but eventually started to break these down and expand her language / change the sentance.

We started private speech therapy in March and it was the therapist who suggested autism could be the reason for her delay, especially given she also did not talk outside of the house (the therapist seems adamant its not situational mutism.) There is some high functioning autism in my husbands side of the family so I wasnt totally surprised but I feel like I never see other autistic children like DD? Like I said she doesnt stim, doesnt flap, doesnt line toys. A few times she spinned around tracking with her eyes and she can clench her fists when excited.

We started using ear defenders at nursery as well as home to help with the noise sensitivity and she started wanting to sit with her peers and play alongside them. She then stopped needing them and is now largely fine and can now go most places without fear.

The reason I think she is a GLP is that she will learn a sentence first rather than the words of the sentence, and there is very limited flexibility.

She does not ask questions unless its a learned phrase e.g Mama where are you, planes where are you, bus where are you' etc.

She has an excellent memory - we can read a book a few times and she will then be able to recite the book back to me while we read it, like she has memorised the speech from each page. Alot of it can still sound quite babbly where she hasnt used the speech independently elsewhere, so there can be filler. She may watch an instagram reel I make of what she has done that month and she can memorise it quickly and say each scene e.g beach! Mummy! Swimming! But if I asked her what was happening on the page of a book, she could not tell me unless I had already said it for her to learn.

She has SOME patterns in her behaviour, e.g there was a video I took of her when she learnt to say 'I want more pram' and it included her making a vroom vroom sound, so then every time she asked for the pram she would then also make the vroom sound.

She has some facial behaviours, such as a scene in Moana, every time she has to run to sit with her Dad and pulls a concerned face, but she knows it makes me laugh. But she will do it every single time.

She still has very limited functional speech, does not use correct pronouns, refers to herself in third person. She does not say 'I am hungry' or 'I want juice' etc. She DOES have shared experiences with me, great eye contact, very affectionate with us and her peers. Loves watching other children, follows her friends round even if she does not speak to them.

She has come on leaps and bounds with her speech though, this morning she got up and said good morning mama, and then 'cuddle mama' etc.

Sorry, ended up on a tangent there!

Seasonofthewitch83 · 07/07/2023 11:43

@Buttercup1999 @NewMum118 Just to add that we were told the speech delay was most likely to caused by being ASD, even if that was her only obvious indicator.

NewMum118 · 07/07/2023 11:51

@Seasonofthewitch83 This is very strange. Goes against every other test I have come across. Even mchat does not mention spoken words. Oy receptive language.

Seasonofthewitch83 · 07/07/2023 11:58

NewMum118 · 07/07/2023 11:51

@Seasonofthewitch83 This is very strange. Goes against every other test I have come across. Even mchat does not mention spoken words. Oy receptive language.

I know, if I do the Mchat now she comes out with a score of 1 as she can still be very sensitive with sounds. Six months ago, her score was a little higher.

I know she is not neurotypical - but I am still not 100% convinced she is autistic. If she is, she is high functioning.