This stuff about non verbal autistic kids being auditory learners

[yurt1]

OK the idea is that in autism the senses are buggered. Roughly the severity of autism might correlate with this. The idea is that the sensory overload suffered by a severely autistic child leads to them 'switching off' a sense in early life so they can make sense of the world. So a child who comes to rely on vision is good at imitating (hence can imitate motor skills then speech). A child who switches off vision because its too overwhelming loses the ability to imitate affecting motor skills then speech. This affects the ability to produce voluntary motor actions including speech. If they've 'switched on' hearing then they may have very good language skills but their motor problems prevent them from being able to demonstrate that (add in some Donna Williams type 'tics and fleas' as she calls them and voluntary behaviour is out the window).

This is adapted from the Strange Son book and is a theory put together mainly from talking to non-verbal people who can type.

It's only a theory, and I suspect a bit simplified but I think its interesting. DS1 has only been able to imitate for a year (and he has become more vocal in that time and has started to model behaviour on others since the imitation kicked in). For a long time he's been able to follow verbal instructions without cues (eg delivered with my back to him- just now for example I said; normal speed 'if you want a biscuit go and help yourself' and he did.) And it explains why some children when presented with a letterboard are found with intact spelling and language abilities.

Ds1 hasn't got that intact ability imo but I think he's been relying on smell and touch more than hearing. But it gives hope. If he's imitating perhaps he's managing his sensory problems better, so perhaps he'll improve further.
Fingers crossed anyway.


There's also some stuff about arousal patterns in autistic children which make it hard for them to learn from experience. All of this is in the Strange Son book - it's a bit of a tabloidy read for want of a better word, but it's very interesting and it does kind of tie the (limited so far) research together into a very simple easy to understand model.

that's really interesting, particularly the suggestion for the reason behind some kids not being able to imitate. Might even try and track down a copy of Strange Son to find out more.

It should be on Amazon. It's a light read but the ideas are really interesting imo, and having read quite a bit written by those who are non-verbal I think she could be onto something (although its bound to be far more complex in reality- always bloody is wiith autism )

Have just ordered it - £6.49! Am interested in the patterns of arousal issue - DS2 is displaying far more involuntary behaviours atm: lots of noises and jerking arms. Could be a number of things - Mike Ash thinks it might be an imbalance of fatty acids and has taken him off all fish oils for 2-3 weeks. It's got worse since he's done that though. It could also be dietary - we've had to swop biscuits because of the custard cream fiasco and are giving him the bourbons in the same range - but I've had a suspicion before that he doesn't react well to cocoa. His skin is a little irritated and bowels have been loose - both of these have been fine for ages now.

Come to think of it, this may well tie in with my earlier thread today - he just seems so much more autistic when he's like this and it's possibly colouring my view of his progress in a negative way.

Doesn't really fit with Ds2 who has speech but terrible motor skills and imitates well verbally but hopelessly physically.

Funny - DS2 imitates much better verbally than physically too. It's hard to know why his speech hasn't developed more quickly when he can attempt to copy almost every sound and word we say.

Well thinking about this - actually not true to say that Ds2 imitates well verbally in that he almost certainly has oral dyspraxia so his speech is unclear, but through his dyspraxia he has intonation and copies a lot of phrases, words etc.

Oh yes, DS2's speech is unclear too - though it is getting clearer. But they can both imitate - it's at the production stage when things go wrong?

DS2 has very little intonation - though when I was singing 'Koala Brothers' to him tonight and stopping to let him fill in the words, he was desperately trying to use a high voice at the end, bless him.

It's not about dyspraxia though Saker. It's about understanding imitation (presumably because you've watched it for years). So your ds understands what imitation is about but just can't execute it very well. This group have no concept at all about imitation. They're also all severely autistic - so with very big problems behaving in the way they want, huge problems in producing any voluntary behaviour etc Lots of involuntary tics and behaviours interfering with attempts to respond.

Ds1 'getting' imitation produced enormous changes. It was as if he suddenly noticed that we were all relevant to him. So now if the rest of the family start dancing for example he joins in. Previously we would have had to ask/tell him to join in (when he may/may not have).

Does he see the point of speech do you think sphil? Donna Williams has written lots on that sort of thing that might be relevant to you.

DS1's general gorss and fine motor imitation is great. Speech non-existent. I am watching through as I reckon babies are understanding imitation for 18 months ish before they start to speak and ds1 has only had imitation in his life for 1 year......

this is a really interesting paper I talked to the author a few years ago and we're using a similar means of teaching literacy.

Oh and this is something weird about ds1. He can only really scribble, but if someone holds a pen and he holds that someone's hand and uses the pen via the other persons hand he can colour in neatly within lines. But if you slip your hand away and leave him with the pen it's straight back to massive scribbles.

How insane is that?

The OP makes sense. Ds1 is good at imitating, but he doesn't understand what to imitate and what not, he will copy everything said and any actions, he can't tell what is part of the words and what is just superfluous. His schoolteachers have told us he is quite funny as the teacher will be telling the class what's going to happen and Ds1 starts repeating it back, complete with sighs, pauses, arms folded, hair flicking etc :D. When he had a review with the Ed Psych last year the EP had a cough, so was coughing whilst talking to Ds1. Ds1 was repeating the words back and coughing, which made the EP ask "does he have a cough as well?". He had to be told, no, Ds1 just thought the coughs were part of the sentences :D.
I am rubbish at imitating, I tried going to an aerobics session last year but stopped when I was so far out of synch with the others I got called out on it too many times. I'm not severe, I just don't pick things up visually very well. My learning style can probably best be described as auditory for basic stuff and anything beyond that I need to write it down, or have it written down and then things are much easier.

That paper I linked to above might be particularly interesting for you Saker as its about a child with very extreme dyspraxia.

Oh that's interesting bullet. Another point in the book was that often the reason that some children had intact literacy was because it was so difficult to focus on the changing world they were focussing on things which stayed still - e.g. words (this would presumably kind of fit with some of the RDI stuff Saker). So they had time to process written stuff.

Lucy Blackman iirc said that she learned language from writing when she was about 13. Before then she knew a ball, could read the word ball but had no idea that either of those related to the word/sound ball. At which stage my head exploded.

She hasn't really developed speech and somewhere she's written about what she thinks might have happened with more intervention. I must re-read. (I think she thought it would have made things worse but I can't remember why).

That doesn't relate to me, I know I had good auditory understanding from an early age, because I can remember looking at my younger sister when I was under three years old and thinking "good god, isn't she bald?". I just tend to drift off and get distracted if I'm not careful and about once or twice a day, or once or twice a month, dependant on how things are going, the words sound as though they are in a foreign language, I hear them but can't decipher them. If there's little distractions and I'm talking to someone on a one to one basis there's rarely any problems unless they give me directions or I'm stressed. I think I hear the words but don't always take them in properly, which is why reading things back gives me time to let them sink in. I think my reading comes from me reading from a fairly early age and being a prolific reader. DH says I don't take a lot in of the real world, but to be honest I think that's an exaggeration, I'm just not great at showing what I've noticed.

Now. how do you get this kind of introspection and information across to the average OT and SLT who dont have the time, money or inclination to step outside the box for your child.

for us, i dont care, we do most of all the work our boy needs ourselves, with no help from anyone outside. but for others who are relying on "professionals" they really need to be doing their homework, reading the books, comparing notes and listening to parents.

if only

MMDDWW part of the problem I think is that there's an idea that autism is 'this' and 'all autistic children are like this' but if you look at the literature it is drawn from it is based on high functioning autism and there has been very little even considering that this might not apply to none HFA. There's so little work/literature on say the sensory issues and what there is tends again to be on HFA - which appears to be very different from severe autism (esp non-verbal). Because so much SALT say is based on levels of attention children with poor attention are written off as not capable. In fact establishing attention in one room with one person doing familiar acts is actually quite easy and it shouldn't be used as a factor in deciding not to provide therapy.

Bullet I suspect that it's all very individual. The children described in Strange Son (mainly Tito- although he's adult now) are similar to but not entirely like ds1. He is (I think) incredibly like Lucy Blackman though. I need to re-read her book - but I find it hard to understand a lot of what she is saying as it is so utterly foreign.

I have come to the conclusion though MMDDDWW that it is best to look at your own child and provide as much of it yourself as you can- because in part each child is so different. And I do think the underlying difficulties causing the interactional difficulties are different. So one size is never going to fit all. In DS1's case he really benefits from the stuff that he does at school- loads of life skills, sensory stuff, learning to function in a group & communication (and fun! important too) and we can top that up easily at home with a structured programme trying to direct literacy towards communication.

Yurt, you are a credit to this board and make absolute sense.

just to let you know at our annual review recently the OT said, "yes your son has sensory issues, but really his needs are very complex". duh what????

she doesnt want to admit just how complex the sensory aspect is cause the pressure will be mostly on her (in light of the fact our boy doesnt get speech therapy which to date has been useless anyway) In fact speech therapist is sitting back and waiting on the report of the OT.

for our child its MOSTLY sensory, and they need to define what sensory means. Coupled with his nutritional difficulties they havent a hope of ever getting as far as we parents can, in terms of providing help.

I have just ordered the "strange son" book, have read the handle method (Judith Bluestone) all of what Donna Williams says, so many books and if only the OT's and other service representatives would do so as well.

I can know what my boy needs, but I dont have time to spend training up these people so he gets the help he needs at school. But really does it matter, most of the time, our children are with us at home.

definitely can't rely on "professionals" to think beyond their own misguided and out of date policies and procedures, they are prevented from it by just that

TBH some sensory research work is being done now, but again focussing on HFA. There is a growing recognition over the last couple of years that it needs to be better understood though. It's sometimes oversimplified though.

Handle interests me. It's probably better to do that than anything an OT could provide.

here's a recent review about a new book by Tito

Tito has also done some blogging on a couple of sites. He is very imaginative and writes well. Here's a link to one:
leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?cat=70

Brilliant! Ds1 does that!!

I'm going to get his new book. I (obviously) find it fascinating to read stuff by adults who have remained non-verbal but have developed an alternative way of expressing themselves.

I wish the so-called professionals had the sheer knowledge and curiosity to discover more which all you mums demonstrate on this thread! Like nightcat says, they just trot out the same old theories again and again. I drive myself mad trying to tell people that there are as many different types of autistic kid as there are NF kids. Wasn't there some research recently which started to break down autism into 10 or more different "autisms" - eg the gut problems/autism, the sensory problems/autism, the verbal dyspraxia/autism (which is where my DS falls I'm pretty sure). But of course if all autisms are grouped under one umbrella, the therapies are going to fail the vast majority. After all, you wouldn't treat 10 different medical conditions with the same drug. Reckon in 10 years time we will look back on this phase of "treatment" for autism, and it will seem like the middle ages and leeches. Going to look up all these articles now. Thanks mumsnetters!

This is referring to a question Yurt asked ages back (can't keep up with threads tonight) but yes, he does understand the point of speech as far as it's to get what you want. We get little flashes of greater understanding, ie when we had our drains done last week he stopped at the garden gate on his way in from school, looked at all the pipes laying on the grass and said 'What's that?' But he didn't look at me when he said it. He will also comfort me if I'm hurt, saying his version of 'Oh dear..sorry...' while stroking my face. He also LOVES to play this as a game. He'll say 'cry...cry...' and I have to pretend to cry and then he goes through the whole oh dear...sorry routine again.

Does that answer your question?

His speech sounds amazing! And it will improve. Those games you describe sound a bit like an extension of those makaton based games you used to play (or maybe you still do). And the snoring game you had going. He's really very interactive. Can't wait to meet him