Should I fight to try and get DS in a language unit? Longish and rambling

[TotalChaos]

DS (3.11, very delayed speech and understanding) has recently started nursery at a state school that is very used to dealing with children with special needs and children with speech problems (staff seem very clued up on visual aids to help kids with talking). DS is very happy at this nursery. I am wondering whether I should try and battle to get DS into a language unit, or if the m/s school fulfils it's early promise, to have him go there instead for reception. DS has had the grand total of ONE NHS SALT appointment (she is due to assess him shortly at nursery), and god knows when he will be seen by joint clinic and go through the ASD diagnostic process.

Thoughts ladies?

TIA

I'm a salt and have a child in a language unit myself.

The nursery sounds good.Ultimately a change will come not from frequent SALT contacts but from the child being in an environment that caters to his/her comm. needs.

Does that help?

What is a language unit?

Very interesting Moondog, I expected that you would say the language unit would be far better for him! I've got private SALT coming to see DS soon, so will canvas her opinion too. What do you think the main difference is between language units and a good inclusive M/S school, out of interest? Actually since we are in Liverpool you may have heard of the school, it's first letters are Ch..... Val....

shiny - it's specialist schooling for children with language problems. usually attached to a mainstream school. not sure if all areas have them.

Thanks TC

It's impossible to say without seeing the shools and units TC,it really is.

Could your private salt pay a visit with you?

I imagine it would be dead straightforward for private SALT to visit the m/s school - probably more awkward to visit the lang unit. At the moment, because DS is STILL after 10 months very little closer to joint clinic assessment, we're still in never never land as regards pre-school panel/any specialist unit etc.

Lang. unit is the only place where salt will be guiding all that happens. But...there are some terrific places about that operate well without a salt breathing down their neck.#

i work in a couple of places where I am 100% confident that they know what they are doing and just need me for some of the trickier stuff and formal assessment.

thanks Moondog, that's very reassuring.

private SALT thought the same as Moondog - that a good m/s school for lang support would not be inherently superior to a lang unit. She felt the main advantage of a lang unit would be that S would be in smaller classes. In reception at his current nursery, it's 30 children to 4 staff (mix of teachers and nursery nurses), so that's a good ratio. Need to find out what ratio is for year 1 though.

I am floundering a bit atm - just don't know whether I should be taking on LEA for lang unit/getting him an ed psy assessment, or accept the status quo, because his current nursery (which is same classroom as reception would ultimately be) seems very good and used to lang problems. DH just seems to be pollyannaish - thinks all will be fine because 1)DS speech is improving and 2)he thinks that "the system" will give S the correct support in school. After a year on the list and being very little nearer to a joint clinic appointment, I don't have this confidence

Yes

Unless you want him potentially dumped like DS3 as soona s he settles in.....

UNLESS you think in your heart that he will get the ASD dx, in which case language unit will probably transfer him out anyway (or at least ours would).

Visiting 3 units this week and next- ready fro review in March. One has a waiting list,but will be interesting.

Would SALT go into school btw?

DS3 is seeinga SALT at school now, but we don't get to have any contact- we were sent some worksheets but we have no idea what to do with them! bar sit and stare and think Ok so........? anyhow.

But at least he's receiving SALT now, even if we can't support it at home.

We demanded a clause was put in his statement about SALT- best we could get was soething saying 'If SALT was deemed necessary then he should be able to receive it at school'- we thought was a waste of time but actually it forced schools hand.

Thanks for the reply, peachy, and for "listening`, I don't have anyone in real life to talk to about this fully - DH is too optimistic about good faith of the "system", my best friend doesn't have experience of lang probs or specialist schooling, and my mum - she tries hard, but well I shield her from worst of it, as can't be bothered with having to comfort her.

dumped by who peachy? I think DS has barely any services to dump him atm!!! SALT in Liverpool do go into schools, so I don't think that is an issue.

atm the difference between your DS3 school and the one he's at is that the one he's at are very very used to kids with lang probs, head of combined nursery/reception unit took pains to point out when I started him there that they have had lots of kids with lang probs, so DS wasn't particularly unusual, and have had kids with no lang at 3.5 when they started in nursery = so atm there isn't a whiff of them secretly wanting shut of him or kids with SN in general. I also know separately that school have participated in research for ASD friendly environments in school, so I think they are pretty reasonable at catering for kids with SN.

Anyway - enough rambling - hope that you manage to sort out a decent lang or ASD unit very soon for DS3, and that the viewings/meeting are productive.

re:diagnosis and SALT units

at the very least, DS would get a diagnosis of speech and language disorder with ASD traits IMHO - but my gut feeling is a diagnosis of HFA. Supposedly the lang units in Liverpool take kids with ASD - but then the ed psych would need to assess him to say that lang was the only problem - and I think that with ASD/social issues, it would be very easy for ed psych to gatekeep him out iyswim if that's their agenda.

Its the school that dumped ds3, once they'd experienced the reality for a fortnight!

If your gut feeling is HFA, have you been to the ASD units in your area? It would give you a better idea of what was on offer. Then you could compare it to the language unit and see which felt better for DS. I do think gut instinct is everything when it comes to picking a school.

Try and imagine yourself X years down the line when ds has seen Ed Psych and been assessed- would you want him to transfer into the ASD unit at that stage if he got the DX? If you felt the language unit could cope then perhaps not, can you see other traits developing in DS though? You may not: some kids are very much MS apart from one issue that needs addressing.

Our language unit works very closely with MS to try and get them back in buy the end of Junior stage. Does yours work like that? Do theya lso have links with ASD provision?

in Liverpool lang units try and get kids back into m/s within 2 years of starting at the unit! not been to see any asd units - only spoken to language unit, not been to see it - I must confess it hasn't occurred to me that I even could go and view ASD provision, without any paed etc appointment. Problem is that without any paed or psych appointment for DS I feel very uncomfortable asserting myself in anyway . It's the netherworld of being pre-diagnosis. I still feel quite bruised from my experience at the local ASD group - treated like an MSBP nutter because DS could speak a bit and play with a babyish toy appropriately psad].

and another thought - is it likely to be better socially for DS if he is with a group of kids with similar communication problems, and he's not standing out, or not?

TotalChaos
Felt like I had to post as you are in exactly the position we were in last year with our ds.
He was assessed for asd and was in the end dx'd with specific language impairment, however asd was not discounted altogether.
We were strongly advised to put him in a lang unit initially and then to transfer him to m/s. We decided though after much soul-searching to put him in m/s as we had alot of knowledge and good experiences with the school,(dd attends)we also had meetings with the head of the m/s before we made our decision.
A big part of our decision was the social interaction that he would recieve at m/s compared to just 7 children in lang unit.
We were very lucky though as lea was very prompt in issuing a statement for ds (16hrs a week) A Salt sees him every week in school for 1.5hrs and as part of his statement a specialist teacher sees him once a week also. They advise schoool etc and we are kept up to date very well.
I'm rambling! but I suppose what I am trying to say is that it was the best decision that we ever made.
DS isnt 5 until july so he is one of the youngest which doesnt help!
I was so worried about him starting school you wouldnt believe it ,however his language has improved loads and socially he is coming along great. He seems to be taking everything in his stride and coping much better than we gave him credit for. Dont get me wrong he isnt much interested in the academic side of things yet and we do still have loads of issues that arise but they are dealt with compassionately and good communication between all invoved is paramount.
I really feel that we made the right decision in the end and we are so pleased that above all also ds enjoys school and is happy to go in every day.
Good luck with whatever decision you make.

Oh and as for the other kids they seem to just accept ds the way he is. ok, hes not a great talker and you wont get much conversation from him but he gets invited to loads of parties (he doent attend them all though, meltdown!! at parties)

Boocha your chiod sounds very like ours- DS3 is 5 in July, was probably SLD until he got his ASD dx but he tends towards regression so it took a couple of those to make it diagniosable.

You're right about the kids- they adore DS3! He's extremely popular which is nice to see, the trouble we have is that as his asd symptoms become much more evident (obsession becoming a hige thing atm for him) school have found it ahrder to cope BUT our school is noted as being crud with SN; at a school like yours he may well have thrived (he also has 16 hours, attends just PM atm). Starting PECs has helped him, but not helped him fit in, iyswim.

The actual school is everything i think. A good MS should cope well- a bad one won't be good for any kid and one with SN will fall through the system fastest of all.

Go see the language unit TC.

thanks very much boocha and Peachy, two different perspectives there. I doubt that our SALT department would send be able to send anyone out weekly, think we would be lucky if it was monthly - it's hugely overstretched. If it was recommended that DS go to a language unit then I would go for that - just I don't know if I've got the stomach for a fight with LEA - DH wouldn't be very supportive I suspect, because he has faith in the authorities/defers to the authorities.

At the ASD support group I went to, they reckoned there wasn't a cat in hells chance of getting a statement just on the back of the language problems, without ASD diagnosis - but that I could use the possibility of a statement application as a "bargaining chip" in terms of asking for a language unit place for DS.

Peachy - you are absolutely right, I do need to see language unit!

It's so difficult to know what to do, isn't it? So much will depend on the attitudes at the individual schools.

Ds2 sees the SALT at school. She visits to observe him and assess him and then advises the staff about the strategies and approaches they can use to help him. Compared to ds1 at the same age, ds2's SALT needs are relatively mild but he actually has far more input than ds1 did.

It sounds as though it's definitely worth contacting the various places to see what your options are.

Lots of sympathy. Ds1 had barely started talking when the deadline for school applications came around. The thought of him coping in a m/s school was horrible. I wish I'd had a crystal ball back then.

Don't rely on the ASD group to advise you about statements- is there any Sn group that you could take ds to that isn't specifically ASD? I don't take ds1 to ASD groups despite the DX because I know he would seem so much mroe able than so many others and that the issues most of the other people would be coping with would be wildly different from the ones we have with him. But the social services disabilility team should haev a list of sports clubs etc (for ds1 it is rubgy) and I have learned so much more from a mixed access Sn group than anywhere else- the parents are so full of advice and trust me, the parents will know the rep of EVERY school in the area!

Go for the statement TC, he won't get the help without it. I never dreamed I'd get one for ds1, everyone said don't bother. The initial step is only a letter after all.

Our school ditcched another kid today, little lad with ADHD in ds3's class. There's only one kid left with a statement now, will be interesting to see if they take her on- her Nan helped establish the LEA Dyslexia team (grandaughter is dyspraxic). they're one amazing, close, intelligent, tough family- both daughters adopted from China- and I wouldn't try and take them in a fight LOL.

Very good idea about finding an SN group that isn't specifically ASD. Will have to see what I can find out. Appalling what your school is doing Peachy.

Thanks CT and Peachy. It's such an isolating nightmare when your biggest worries about school applications are somewhat more than - oooh what if my darling ends up at a "rough" school where some children aren't from middle class families/school isn't at top of league tables. None of the professionals I have spoken to seem to have any empathy about the stress the starting school/late diagnosis issue causes.