Autistic kids and transgender ideology - can we talk about this?

[Bananasinpyjamas21]

What are people’s views on gender ideology in respect to our autistic kids? My DS is 10 years old and coming up to the time when schools will be having personal and social education lessons and other kids will also be talking about gender ideologies I guess.

I know that autistic kids are much more likely to be trans than other kids.

I also feel that DS is quite vulnerable. He can be quite feminine, but also masculine, and for me this is totally fine and up to now he has been able to explore all of this without being told it has to have a label or that this means he is born in the wrong body, and possibly making decisions about hormones later down the line. Honestly I am a little worried about social media (for many reasons).

He also will say very direct things to people, such as why has that woman got a beard, because he is just is really direct. I don’t know how I feel if he is punished for that or made to feel bad. Obviously I don’t want him to hurt people’s feelings but that is part of his autism, he states the obvious.

What do other people think?

I'm not really sure what you mean by transgender "ideology" but I agree with you that many autistic people are transgender - and an even larger number have some form of gender dysphoria or more broadly an ambiguous or uncomfortable or just different relationship with gender to most of their NT peers.

I also think this generation have a much more fluid and less boxed-in relationship with gender than our generation did even going outside the autistic community. I've noticed with my friends' older kids and my own DS that it is much more normal now for a boy to want to wear a princess dress or buy something pink or glittery and just enjoy it without worrying about whether it is "for boys" or "for girls" (as much as there is lots of horribly gendered stuff still pushed on our kids by shops, I do think the kids themselves are more open minded and comfortable with this). So there is also no reason why a young man couldn't enjoy make-up or dresses without identifying as a woman (just look at Harry Styles or Olly Alexander for example). I would try to answer questions about women with beards or men in make-up or whatever in a very factual way: people are different and there are as many different kinds of person as there are people - and an important part of our freedom is our freedom of expression, and our gender expression is part of that (if we want it to be).

It's a difficult time for our kids as this is new and it seems like this generation are really guinea-pigs (which is better than having no options at all but still very uncomfortable).

And yes, some people do transition and regret it, although my understanding is the numbers are quite a small proportion of those that transition. So while I definitely think as parents we need to counsel caution, we also shouldn't assume the worst. Yes, some people transition and regret it. Others transition and don't regret it but also find it doesn't solve their problems in the way they hoped. Others transition and feel much happier in their body as a result (and often regret going through a puberty that gave them irreversible physical features that don't align with their gender expression). So regret is always a looming possibility whichever path a gender dysphoric person chooses.

My view is in the face of all this uncertainty and irreversibility (both of intervening and of not intervening) and lack of data more information is good. I know anything irreversible is scary, but I think if we push too hard against the possible option of transitioning (particularly with autistic kids) it's more likely to cement the initial idea rather than encourage them to explore all the alternatives before making a decision that is irreversible further down the line.

Even if you were for some crazy reason trying to actively "push" your child towards gender reassignment, in my friends' experience there is no risk of any "rushing" being involved. I have a couple of friends with trans kids, and both have been identifying male for several years without getting anywhere near the top of a waiting list to actually intervene in terms of even puberty-blockers let alone cross-sex hormones (where I think the latter can't be prescribed before 17 anyway? But one is now older and he still doesn't have access to the option of that even) still less surgery. The most important thing for both of them in terms of mental health has been a supportive family environment (which obviously doesn't mean assuming that medication and surgery will be the right answer - but also doesn't involve ruling anything out).

If DS shows interest in his gender identity I'd also be exploring concepts like "autigender". As I understand it it's a kind of catch all term to capture the idea that autistic people often have an ambiguous/different/difficult relationship with gender as a concept. This video might be a good starting point: neurodivergentrebel.com/2021/01/06/what-is-autigender-the-relationship-between-autism-gender-an-autistic-perspective/

It's all so conflicting this gender ideology stuff. They say that boys can wear dresses and that should be fine, but then they also say that they should take hormones and have surgery to 'become' the opposite gender - which seems to go against the whole thing that gender labels shouldn't be restrictive.

In terms of autistic children - yes I agree that they are more vulnerable to being influenced and I don't agree that schools should even talk about all this gender nonsense. It should be up to the parents to talk about it in a way that is suitable for their child.

Social media is probably the worst thing that happened to society, and I will try to not allow it in my children's lives for as long as possible.

@LightTripper thank you, I do agree that more information is good and a wait and see attitutude. I don’t want to make a huge fuss but also I don’t want to ignore this issue. For me the crucial difference here is that up until now DS has been happy to explore different aspects of himself without any labels, but soon he will be told that there are certain labels which is why I call it an ideology - it’s not a fact that just because DS likes some girls things that means he may be born in the wrong body, it’s a view of some adults, and I don’t him to be told that from anyone outside, especially trusted adults such as teachers. However I would really like him to be able to feel free to carry on expressing himself without comment at all, to just be! He’s got years to explore and experiment. Really useful to hear your views.

@bananabug I also would like kids to be free of being told that they may be in the wrong body, especially vulnerable kids, but no one seems to want to talk about that. DS takes things very seriously and very literally. I am also quite wary of any other adults telling me that for any reason they know DS more than his parents and would help him to do things in secret, that to me is a safeguarding issue. I really like that people are free to express themselves. I have happily given DS the freedom to dress how he wants, have toys that he wants, with no outside pressure or suggestion. He had a big phase of my little ponies, and is very into fashion. I want him to have the freedom and space to explore what that means for him and he’s developmentally quite immature, so I want him to have a longer time to just grow within himself, if you see what I mean!

There's a perfectly good Sex and Gender section - could you move this to there?

This is very specific to special needs children for me.

I think the current situation is worrying, especially for autistic teen girls. I think it’s fine to be gender non-conforming, but that doesn’t mean you can change sex. This is the line I would take with your DS - e.g. he can play with whatever he wants, but he is still male. The push from a section of society to be affirmative at all costs is, in my opinion, harmful for vulnerable young people. DD2 is early twenties and gender non-conforming but luckily also GC.

I suspect much is actually related to ASD difficulties e.g. sensory processing disorder. Many female autists, DD2 included, prefer male clothing because of the looser fit being more comfortable, and as a result some think that must mean they aren’t female. Or social difficulties - some girls think because they struggle to fit in with other girls there must be something ‘wrong’ and they can’t possibly actually be female, when in reality their difficulties stem from the triad of impairment.

@Thatsnotmycar yes in my own teenagehood I was very good at science, had short hair and only wore trousers. I happily just existed and found tolerant friends. I think the main thing lacking was that I wasn’t encouraged in science enough as a girl, so I’m pleased to see this is happening more. I do remember a lot of male attention, whistle calls etc and I felt threatened and uncomfortable at being noticed, which may well have led me to reject my femaleness.

With DS I am a little concerned about being told that people can be in the wrong body, I don’t think that’s OK to tell a child. I’m also concerned about terminology and safeguarding, from both authority figures such as teachers but also social media. It’s hard enough with general safeguarding, just don’t want an additional ideology to be put on him when he is so young in many ways.

I think all you can do is reinforce the message at home, keep tabs on what he is accessing online, and challenge anything you think is a safeguarding risk.

This is a really interesting thread. I think that autistic people often don't conform to societal expectations across a whole range of things, but I worry that within that gender has become a sort of Venus fly-trap.

I believe in the importance of affirming biological sex and working to identify any issues (particularly for girls) where their sex is seen as a negative because boys have more opportunities or less pressure.

My autistic DD much prefers communicating with boys than girls. Pink, glitter, unicorns etc repel her. She begs for baggy plain "boys" clothes and football shirts because she wants to run and be fast and energetic. She's allergic to most perfumed toiletries. She cannot bear any form of hair clip or hair band and insists on short cropped hair.

And her sex is female.

And she knows she is different to her peers and that she struggles with herself and why she is the way she is. So she is much more susceptible to trying to find an answer for her difference in the growing idea of gender fluidity.

So we are focussing on opening up a strengths-based dialogue about autism, allowing her to wear whatever she wants and choose activities she wants, and affirming the goodness of her female body.

@ArrowNorth you sound very grounded as a parent for your DD, I really like the balanced approach you are taking where she is not ‘wrong’ in body or brain.

I also want to give DS time. DS is going to spend a long time I think exploring who he is, much longer than most. I can see how a girl, noticing how males have more opportunities, and being more open, could be quite vulnerable. For DS it’s also his emotional and social immaturity, he has only just got language and some awareness that he is different to others. It is like a butterfly emerging, and I want to give him space to unfold without him being told ‘X = Y’.

@Bananasinpyjamas21 That is the exact phrase we use about our DD - we want to "hold space" for her to explore who she is without that being cut short by going off down one particular path before knowing herself more fully.

Must be a very fine balance for you to find with your DS, especially as his language is emerging now several years later than his same-age peers ...

Yes ‘holding space’ is exactly that, and I do foresee a time when it could get quite tricky holding space around social media for example! It will be quite difficult I think, of course I want to DS to grow and feel the same as his peers, however he has had a completely different trajectory developmentally to most.

Also there is a very real possibility of going down rabbit holes… I have seen this happen with older sen kids.

A lot of transgender people also don't like idea of the "wrong body" as a way of understanding what being trans means - I think it's a pretty old-fashioned way of thinking about it. Even for gender dysphoric people who turn out to be trans, being assigned to the wrong gender at birth doesn't mean there is anything wrong with their body (although of course if trans people are uncomfortable with parts of their body they may choose to change it, either through hormone treatments and/or surgery). I think it's reasonable for any parent to be worried about their child taking medications and having surgery, however old they are (I know my Mum would still worry about me if I needed an operation!) When they are young and inexperienced the fear of them making an irreversible decision they later regret is even more real - although realistically all kids will do that to a greater or lesser extent, we can't completely shelter them from that risk.

I do think the idea of "autigender" is a good starting point for autistic people though - it's very inclusive and not pushing people towards any sort of solution, but just recognising that autistic people often feel differently about their gender and don't have a simple relationship with gender. I've been listening to the "square peg" podcasts and although I'm only a handful of episodes in it's striking how many of the interviewees (all of whom are autistic) have a difficult relationship with gender (e.g. were tomboys and/or rejected or reject traditionally "female" presentation). Most of them however identify as either female or non-binary rather than male. Not feeling comfortable in traditional female gender expression (and even rejecting it) does not necessarily mean changing your body/taking hormones. I'm very supportive of trans rights and as part of that I do think it's important that gender dysphoric children understand that gender dysphoria does not necessarily mean that hormones and surgery are the answer to all problems (although I do also believe it is an answer to the problems of many gender dysphoric people who are also trans, so we also shouldn't rule it out).

It's a tricky one - I think in the end all we can do is be supportive and provide rounded information on a wide range of experiences and options, and then hope our kids make the best decisions for themselves over time.

@LightTripper you see even the term ‘autigender’, ‘non binary’ or ‘identify as female’ are concepts that carry assumptions about who we are and reject sex as binary. This is not something that I would want introduced to DS until he is an adult.

Arrow similar approach to what we took with DD2. Growing up she was very much a ‘tom-boy’, preferred socialising with boys and other gender non-conforming girls. She still does now.

Banana online content is a minefield. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, risk to autistic teens.

I don’t think affirmation is ever the answer, especially for vulnerable DC.

@Thatsnotmycar I am pretty terrified about online and DS, especially when he gets older the peer pressure/socializing on apps. Already YouTube has been a problem.