4 year old behaviour

[TeaInTheGarden]

I’m looking for some advice about whether the behaviour from our 4yo son is neurotypical, or whether we need to get a professional opinion.

He’s just started school and it’s been a rough ride so far, I don’t know if he is just plain stubborn or it’s something more??

Examples:

• terrible separation anxiety at school. Literally kicking and screaming as I leave, being restrained by teacher till door is closed, first day he stayed by the door for over an hour I think. He doesn’t do this every day though. Some days he goes in totally fine.
• refusal to go to PE because doesn’t want to go in the hall. Stayed back with the other reception class when given the direct choice.
• same thing with lunch one day, didn’t want to go and ended up sitting in office area instead
• didn’t want to stay for lunch anymore because they were telling him to eat sandwich first (I stopped putting sandwich in)
• won’t have school dinners even on pizza day as they say he has to eat pizza first (pudding is on the tray so he wants to eat that first)
• makes excuses as to why he can’t do things, eg tummy hurts, too tired
• spent lots of time at preschool in character as an animal and wouldn’t come out of character to communicate (he doesn’t seem to be doing this at school though)

School are not concerned at all, had a meeting with his teacher and she says he does everything expected of him in school, with the exception of the PE refusal which they are putting down to just settling in. He went to PE fine today apparently.

However today he had a huge meltdown in the park after school as he couldn’t get his own way (his brother didn’t push him quite the right speed in the zip wire so he was red another turn, he had a second go but wanted a third- I told him no as other kids were waiting and he broke down), ended with him smacking me in the face as I tried to get him back to the car. Then kicking and hitting me constantly as I was strapping him into his car seat. He’s my third child and I have no idea how to discipline him. He’s so upset I feel I need to get him calm, rather than punish him, as I just can’t bear to do anything that will escalate the situation. Clearly he needs a consequence to the behaviour, so tomorrow after school I will tell him no park, and why. I expect another meltdown will happen at that point!

He's also an extremely fussy eater and never sleeps through the night- he gets in bed with me every night without fail. It feels like we still have a 2 year old really, but his communication skills are excellent. He has all the words to try and tell us all exactly what to do and what we are doing wrong!

Can anyone advise if this is within “normal” for a child who has just started school and exhausted, or whether I should be concerned and looking into reasons for his behaviour? (I can’t even get a referral for any sort of assessment as doctors won’t do anything without a report from school, and school have nothing to say!)

Any advice from anyone who has experienced similar would be much appreciated please!

I think a lot of children struggle to settle in reception. How far of 5 years old is he? It could be anxiety, particularly if he hasn't spent much time away from you/ primary carers before. But some of his behaviours suggest something more. Could the noise of PE/ the school dinner hall be bothering him? His quirky way of eating too (my own dd rarely eats her sandwich first, and has some similarities with your ds). And his after school meltdown could be tiredness if he's a young reception child. But equally it could be the Coke bottle effect (google it if you haven't heard of it) and you're his safe person to let the fizz out on.

Does he understand good and bad behaviour if you give him scenarios? If he knows how to behave well, then I think you're right that he needs help to calm down/ address the cause of his anxiety rather than punishment. Punishment will escalate the situation and at that age they just really struggle to regulate their emotions, they're not being naughty. Typical fight or flight physiological reaction to act out physically. So hard when you're on the receiving end.

Our dd has always had quirks, sensory issues (shoes and socks etc) when anxious, very irritable, physically and verbally aggressive when going through an anxious time (new environments, transitions and general change). Her behaviour went off the scale when she started school - uniform refusal, seatbelt refusal - we went through a really hard time and ended up seeking additional support. Her school told us nothing was wrong, she was fine at school - classic masking. Her Coke bottle spilled over at home.

Fast forward a year, and she's doing so much better. Her school still doesn't recognise the sensory issues and other quirks and because her neurodivergence isn't 'obvious' enough across two settings, I am unsure she'd get a diagnosis. But we know and understand her so much more now and react and respond from a place of understanding that her behaviour is simply communicating that she's unhappy about something but can't always quite explain. Her vocabulary is good, her interactions are otherwise 'normal' and you wouldn't know when speaking to her the problems she/ we sometimes have. At one point we couldn't even get out of the house for nice days out.

I think it sounds like your ds is anxious. I don't know what the cause of the anxiety is - separation from you, or something more. Either way, you should definitely monitor his behaviour and reactions and if things escalate get support at the earliest opportunity. In the meantime, you're right not to punish I think.

Sorry I’ve just spotted this reply.
Thank you so much, I agree with you totally about the tiredness. The week before last he had to have 2 days off school for an unrelated issue, and then it ran into the weekend, so 4 days in a row off, and then this week he was fantastic till Thursday when we had after school meltdown. We’ve had more since too, so I’m definitely thinking tiredness is playing a big part, or like you say, is it the coke bottle and it’s actually anxiety??

He’s five at the start of January, so not a young one in the year but he’s definitely struggling a lot for whatever reason. Although in school he’s now appearing completely fine and has been to PE with no drama, but obviously this is not unusual and proves nothing. When I asked him he said he didn’t want to go to the hall- but I think it was just the demand being out on him in the wrong moment, nothing specific to PE really, or maybe dear of the unknown??

I’m pretty sure he understands right and wrong behaviour, but he just can’t come down once he’s in a state. Today we were at a service station on a long journey and he wanted a kinder egg in the shop, I said no. This resulted in him screaming and shouting and demanding to go home instead of to the family we are visiting , for the next 90 minutes of the journey. He threw all his toys at us (heavy model dinosaurs!) and then when he had nothing else to throw he took off his shoes and socks and threw them. Nothing we could say would calm him or bring him round. He said if I wanted him to go to see his cousin I should have bought him the kinder egg. Over and over, stubbornness on another level. He eventually came out of it himself when he was interested in some pumpkins and Halloween decorations he saw. Now obviously this could be a normal 4 year old tantrum…. But to me it’s just so “extreme”.
He was then brilliant for the rest of the afternoon playing with his cousin like nothing had happened, totally different boy.

He’s my third boy so I feel like a complete idiot not knowing how to handle him, but I really am clueless! At no point on the journey today could we have even attempted to punish him- he was threatening to take his arms out of his car seat straps at one point when I tried to play an audio book to distract him. I was also having to pretend I was looking for a roundabout to turn round and go home, again to stop him getting out of his seat straps, if I’d said no he would have done it for sure!

Have you got a referral for your DD or is it not possible without school supporting you? It seems so hard when they mask and comply with everything at school! Good to hear she’s doing better a year later, it really is so hard starting school for some kids ☹️

not an expert but it sounds like it’s worth pursuing to me. Keep detailed records of what happens and how often. Best of luck.

Thanks, yes I need to make sure I document everything as my memory for detail is shocking and I could easily forget bits.

The problem is if we do want to get him assessed it would need to be done privately I think, as school have no concerns.

The school should be more than familiar with the coke bottle analogy so I would try to keep them in the loop as it will help build a bigger picture.

For example, on the days when he has an outburst are there any precursor or warning signs at school? You wouldn’t be able to see them and he wouldn’t be able to articulate them. But the school might not realise they are warning signs because they not seeing the outburst.

I'm not a doctor nor an expert in any way, so take this with bucketloads of salt, but what you've said made me think a little of this: www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources/information-on-the-eda-q/

I'd also recommend the Explosive Child approach. Actually, that works just as well on tired and crabby NT children!

@SachiLars Good point about keeping school in the loop. The big picture is definitely important.

@SusiePevensie yes I had considered PDA. I know a couple of children who have this so it was already on my radar. It’s so hard to tell what’s normal tired stubborn child behaviour and how much is too much. I will look up the explosive child approach, thanks!

@TeaInTheGarden the reaction you've described when visiting his cousin is very much like our dd. We too considered PDA. She has a need to feel/ be in control which is heightened at certain times. What you described is a transition. Even if your ds has done that journey before and is something he's been excited about, it's still a change from his usual routine. Can I ask whether you prepared him for the journey at all? Explained what would happen, when and how? How does he deal with plans changing due to unforeseen circumstances?

Holidays with dd were always a trigger point, even if she was excited. We really struggled with days out anywhere. I well remember frog marching her into Legoland with no shoes on (the day out was a treat for our then 10yo ds so I was really annoyed she was ruining it) with her screaming the whole time. Honestly not proud of how I've handled some of the situations. It sounds like you did very well in a really difficult situation.

We found embarrassment about what others think of how we're dealing with a very public meltdown to be the hardest thing, and this in itself further fuelled an already tense situation. I honestly got to the point in the end when I stopped worrying about being seen as 'permissive' and focused on the right response to my child instead. Dh found that much harder than me.

Other triggers for dd were school days when she knew something different was going to happen - swimming for the first time, treasure hunts, fetes etc. Once I understood this, I was able to get down to her level, say I noticed she was struggling with something and asked her if anything was worrying her. She'd then cry, we'd have a cuddle and I'd suggest things that might help her, or distract her or whatever, before it escalated too much. Once it's escalated, we have no hope - she will not tolerate us touching her even if we're trying to sooth and calm her.

If we pursue a diagnosis, we will likely do so privately. She's doing well for now, but we know she has perfectionist/ OCD tendencies that mean she puts herself under a lot of pressure amd responds badly to high expectations - other people's or her own . Exams will likely be particularly hard for her.

@Whatafustercluck Would you believe I haven’t considered, until this moment, that the journey itself could have been part of the reason he exploded like that.
I don’t think I prepared him much at all, and although he plays very nicely with his cousin, it’s been so long since he saw her he wouldn’t have remembered that. And it’s been even longer since we went up to their house. So possibly he was already anxious and we hadn’t seen it, then the kinder egg was just one thing too much…?

We’ve also had rhe very public meltdowns, funnily enough one terrible one also in a theme park. We’d arrived at magic kingdom in Florida, exhausted and jet lagged (all of us!) and stopped for a pic in front of the castle. I picked him up and he smacked me in the face. It was so awful, he was then extremely upset and melted down for ages. I knew we had to wait it out and he snapped out of it eventually, but hubby found it hard that others could see and hear him, he was trying to swipe our entire table of food etc. I think I really need to start a proper diary and try and find triggers and links.

Totally relate to appearing permissive. It’s weird as I can feel myself dealing with him in a totally different way to his big brothers. He just needs to be calmed down, the thought of putting him in time out is a complete non starter, whereas this worked with my older 2 (not that it’s a great technique now I know more!)
I’ve questioned myself, am I just being a lazier parent now I’m on the third one? Possibly! Or am I treating him in a different way because he needs me to. For example, when I tell people that I put him in his high chair (strapped in!!) with a snack and iPad to calm him down, they think I’m doing the wrong thing and rewarding him for bad behaviour. Which perhaps is true, but it’s only because I don’t know what else to do ☹️

I feel for your DD with the OCD and perfectionist tendencies, I was exactly like that as a child and found exams so very stressful. At least you’re aware of what she will find hard and can give her the right support when she needs it.

The “different type of day” at school I actually know well from my NT 9yo DS. He loves events now but when he was little it was a complete nightmare. The worst one, take scooters to school day, ended up with him missing the whole day! So I’ll be prepared for that at least if 4yo DS is the same…! So much pressure on kids with events like that!

OK, so while you decide on next steps, here are a few things that have helped us with managing dd's extremes:

• assume your ds knows how to behave and will behave if he can behave. His behaviour is communication because he lacks the self awareness to describe his feelings and the ability to regulate his resulting emotions.

• help him identify and label his emotions, to build his awareness of feelings (good and bad).

• Rule out tiredness, illness, hunger, boredom etc. Dd is very articulate, but even now (at nearly 6) she cannot always identify discomfort and will act out instead - becoming irritatable. Avoiding the obvious triggers means you'll be better able to pinpoint the not so obvious ones.

• talk in specifics, don't be vague. Explain when, how and why things are going to happen. Explain that not everything is certain, have a plan ready when things don't work out the way he expects. Talk to him about plan b.

• prepare him for anything outside of his normal routine. Don't take for granted what you, as an adult, understand and where your ds may have gaps in his understanding.

• introduce 'special time' every day (even if for only 10 mins) and increase special time when his behaviour worsens. The thing that really changed for us was dh having special time with dd. She thrived on the positive attention from him in particular.

• try "first, and then...' language. Try to keep some form of routine, even if it's just "first breakfast, then get dressed". Routine is like comfort food for most kids, but even more important for others.

• Try to put yourself in his mind. What do you as an adult take for granted which he, as a child, may find confusing, worrying, strange etc. It could be something as simple as going somewhere and not knowing whether there will be toilets there!

• empathise, always, before working with him to find a solution (the Explosive Child book is really helpful in this respect). Empathise and validate his feelings, especially when his behaviour is difficult. You can often avoid total meltdown by empathising and not chastising at the earliest opportunity.

• with dd she's actually really perceptive. She notices our little irritations (eye rolls, sighs etc) which raises her anxiety. It's taken a monumental effort, but consistent patience and understanding really is key.

• consider situations in which your ds may have heightened sensitivity/ discomfort - noisy crowded places, smelly places, new experiences (taste, touch, smell, sight, hearing). Dd is a noisy energetic rambunctious little girl, who on most days has no issues in this respect. But on other days it'll set her off. E.g. she loves cuddles and is very affectionate. She vomited on Monday night, was feeling very poorly and rejected all physical efforts to soothe her. We no longer attempt to change her response, we've learned to accept it.

• understand that your ds needs a different response to your other children and don't feel guilty about that. You're not 'giving in and giving him what he wants". You're de-escalating in the here and now and will be able to re-set the boundaries over time, when he's calm enough to take them on board.

Hope this helps.

@Whatafustercluck thank you so much for your advice, really helps hearing practical tips from someone who has been there! lots of these things are things I’ve never thought about. I’ve ordered the “explosive child” book too.
The special time idea is really good- he definitely thrives on one to one attention but also definitely downs t get enough as one if three! His dad is better than me at this actually and will do all the role play games on the floor, which he loves. I must try harder at that! 🤣

I’ve been thinking, and a lot of the meltdowns we experience come from DS being told “no”.
Is this common in ASD? I’m asking as I’m reading that meltdowns are a case of overwhelm, whereas a tantrum has an aim, something the child wants to achieve.
In our case he definitely has an aim, so can it be considered a meltdown?
I totally understand what he wants from the tantrum/meltdown, but it’s the extreme nature that is concerning me. For example this week a simple “no” to a request resulted in his drink being thrown one way off the table and plate of pasta the other 😫
Is this neuro typical behaviour and I’m overreacting? Or os it too extreme for a 4 year old (5 in January….?)
My instinct says there’s an issue, DH on the other hand thinks it’s normal….

A presentation of demand avoidance is definitely a real thing (PDA). It could be that or it could be just a phase, either way it’s likely rooted in anxiety and a subsequent desire to be in control. Have a look at the PDA website for techniques and read up on declarative language to try and help eliminate the power struggles.

Thanks @openupmyeagereyes
I’ve got a new book today that I saw recommended somewhere on here, “The family experience of PDA” which is good so far.

So today I told DS we were going to the dentist…. His behaviour then deteriorated and he ended up in full meltdown before we even got there. He then lay on the waiting room floor screaming, and refused to let the dentist see his teeth. He ended up throwing the little mirror tool across the room.
Now I’m looking at this with PDA in mind, I see it as an obvious panic attack. He told me later when he was calm that he was scared he would get a filling and it would hurt (I didn’t know he even knew what a filling was!)
I would like to pursue a private assessment but DH insists there is “nothing wrong” and it’s just normal 4 year old behaviour. He wasn’t there today and didn’t see the absolute panic and distress he was in, it was awful.
So it’s very hard to know what to do next when the other half is not on board 😞
I can insist and he won’t try and stop me, but I’d really like his support. No idea how to convince him though.

It’s fairly common for the dad not to see what’s going on, it comes up regularly on these boards. Often grandparents too. It’s either worry or denial, or they just have little experience with young dc and aren’t seeing them next to typically developing peers. My own dh was like this when I first started voicing concerns at 2-3, he would say there was a range of normal etc. which is true but I knew it was more than that.

Ultimately he is extremely unlikely to be diagnosed as autistic if he isn’t, and if the assessment determines he’s not autistic then I think you may still come away with valuable information from the professionals doing the assessment that will help to support him going forwards. Maybe other PPs can post their thoughts on this?

@openupmyeagereyes yeah I think he is in denial that there’s an issue. He knows he had a meltdown due to anxiety, and that it’s real hard etc, but thinks it’s “within normal”, like you say.
I think his reaction is too extreme and is neuro diverse, and that’s where we differ in opinion. He doesn’t think we need to “do” anything, but he’s not the one doing the lion’s share of the child care, so it’s easy for him to say that…!

You’re right about the assessment process- I think it could be helpful either way. If he doesn’t have a diagnosis I’d still appreciate some guidance on how to deal with the situations we are finding ourselves in. Label or no label, there’s no denying the difficulties we are facing.

Hi @TeaInTheGarden only just seen your update. Dd becomes more controlling when anxious and we go through phases where 'no' is enough to set her off. We've learned to find other ways of saying no and indirect ways of getting her to do things, such as 'here's your toothbrush, ready for you to do your teeth'. Control is a common theme. She is extremely organised and will sometimes 'tidy' or 'contain' things around her to feel more in control.

When you took your son to the dentist, did you tell him in advance or 'spring' it on him on the day? We've had similar with Dd (not with dentists - weirdly, she loved the dentist!) but with days out, holidays etc. It helped to recognise what would be a new experience for her and talk through what would happen, when and how, letting her ask questions before we even got to the stage where we were asking her to do whatever it was. She'd have definitely struggled with waking up and being told she was doing something new, today.