Friends daughter- PDA

[stillvicarinatutu]

My son is an adult now and he has a diagnosis of Aspergers.
We went to Elizabeth newton.

I now live next door to a lovely neighbour with a 9 year old- she is definitely on the spectrum and has adhd but presents as having pathological demand avoidance syndrome.
She is an absolute nightmare at times .
She is aggressive verbally and physically. Her tone is always argumentative and stroppy. She hits and kicks out at her mum . She can do English but not maths and is working at several years below her actual age. She is getting one to one at school but no hcp plan or diagnosis formally .
I've seen pda before and im convinced- she absolutely refuses any demand made of her but if you word things right she will engage . She is anxious. Has no peer friends other than one who is also SN .
She cannot understand consequences- she called our adult neighbour a bitch and now is sad that she won't speak to her or let her kids play with her anymore. (Bit ott- she did write an apology note )
She is really difficult all the time but can actually be lovely and kind and funny . I'm the only person who will babysit her . Her mum is absolutely lovely and this is definitely not a parenting issue - she's had assessments which show she is on spectrum and has adhd but this is far more difficult than Aspergers ....she's anxious, angry, volatile, violent and aggressive. She actually comes across as completely unlikable which is really sad - she's 9 . I do get on with her but tonight I had to say to her if I saw her lash out at her mum once more because she couldn't do her homework I'd lock her up and take her to the cells ( drastic I know but she stopped hitting her mum !) she is permanently on the go doing gymnastics, handstands , cartwheels , but she can't cope with being asked to do anything and homework tonight was a huge trigger .
Anyone experienced PDA ? My boy was easy compared to this .
Thanks

PDA isn't recognised by lots of experts, some think it's just a reaction to being extremely anxious (as many autistic people are). I'm not sure talking to your neighbour about PDA will be the nost helpful. You obviously already do a lot for her. Is she in touch with local support organisations? I thinking encouraging and helping her to get expert support might be the most helpful thing.

Just to add, my child with autism cannot do homework. It's common for children with autism. My son is usually very calm but will go crazy and lash out if I try and get him to do homework. Dropping the honewirk might help.

I knew liz newson - she was lovely and so helpful and I'm pretty sure my neighbours dd has pda - it is a subset in its own right on the autistic spectrum.
I have encouraged my neighbour to go to her go and ask for a child clinical psychologist to evaluate her dd .
She is classic pda. She's more resistant to any demand than I've ever known - this goes beyond homework
Last weekend we all went to a
Bbq and she wanted to sit in the front seat . We had a 15 min standoff . Then she threw her iPad, refused to get out of the car at the bbq for around 2 hours . When she did get out she refused to even acknowledge my existence other than an eye roll and a sneer . Took about 10 hours for her to talk to me again . I know autism - all my sons friends were on the spectrum, but this is something else . She's incredibly difficult. It's not just anxiety. She rails against anything and anyone who asks anything of her . The child minder has just given her mum notice . She can't cope . She lies constantly, she won't admit anything ever , she won't face up to any consequences at all ever , she denied calling neighbour a bitch and now won't come into garden when she's out , she's lost her friend over that because they're little lad is same age and autistic - but this girl is in another level entirely. She is manipulative in the extreme . Much more than anyone in the spectrum I've encountered and my boy is now 30 and all his friends are autistic . I've dated autistic men.
Trust me - this girl has pda. It's relentless and so difficult to deal with her . The moment you say something she doesn't want to hear the balloon goes up . She wrecks the place , hits and kicks , screams obscenities, it's like this with every ask of her to do something. It's asking her - even if it's something she likes - it's tha asking her that triggers .

In many areas PDA is not diagnosed as a standard alone diagnosis.

The way you talk to and about the DD isn’t helpful, and at times I think it is disgusting. You told an anxious ND 9 year old you would lock her up and take her to the cells!


You might know autistic people, but as the saying goes “When you meet one person with autism, you've met one person with autism.” You say it isn’t just anxiety but PDA is often driven by anxiety.

The family need to ask for a referral to CAMHS if she’s not already under them, SALT and OT, apply for an EHCNA and ask for social care assessments. They should also look at the PDA society and Yvonne Newbold’s website and resources.

I am extremely tolerant of this child and I'm the only person who will babysit her but there is no way I'm standing there watching g her hit her mother .

My son is autistic and most of his circle was - so don't be so patronising. The child needs to live in the real world where not everyone will tolerate bad behaviour no matter what the reason !
She has just to understand violence is not ever going to be tolerated and she is intelligent enough to know that .

Her mother leans on me extensively and me and her dd get on just great . But she knows with me I won't tolerate violence . And not should I .

And CAAMHS is shit as well you probably know .
Waiting list massive and the dismiss more than help due to funding and lack of understanding

When the child is screaming shut up you fat idiot at her mum or going to kick her - I'm meant to go awwww there there it's ok because you have autism ?

Nope . That's why prisons are full of special needs who don't know what hit 'em.

I have not been patronising. Just because DS and “his circle” have ASD does not mean you understand others presentation and needs, everyone is different and needs support.

When the child is screaming shut up you fat idiot at her mum or going to kick her - I'm meant to go awwww there there it's ok because you have autism

That’s not what I posted. There is middle ground between telling an anxious ND DC you are going to lock them up and take them to the cells and doing nothing. Neither is helpful. Neither did I say you should tolerate violence, but intelligence has little to do with VCB, a person can be gifted but still display VCB.

Not everyone having a good experience of CAMHS doesn’t mean one shouldn’t try to engage with the service as some do receive good support. It is also possible to get the provision included in an EHCP, so if CAMHS can’t or won’t provide it the LA must fund independent providers.

You know what ? It's not my battle . I was trying to help but I'll
Leave them to it .
Thanks.

And when I said if you kick your mother in front of me I will take you're the cells- she stopped. She knew. She didn't want to test me . Which tells me she has some understanding that her violence is not acceptable. She is 9 . Her other is not going to cope with her when she is16 and doing this . I was trying fri help. I wouldn't tolerate this of my son and he's turned out fine- no lasting trauma.

Again, VCB and PDA aren’t about understanding or intelligence. You can be gifted and understand and still display VCB and have PDA. They aren’t mutually exclusive as you seem to think. You made NDN’s DD comply by scaring her in to submission, that isn’t helpful and is harmful.

Chronologically she may be 9 but developmentally she is likely to be around 6 as autistic children are often developmentally around 2/3rd’s of their chronological age.

Again, you can’t compare DS to NDN’s DD, everyone is different and has a different presentation and needs. You wouldn’t you say my DS with CP didn’t need a wheelchair so NDN’s DD with CP doesn’t either.

Omg the poor pda child.

I’ve got a diagnosed pda boy - it’s an absolute horrendous condition to live with.

you are not helping at all. The mother needs to have some boundaries but it’s not your job to set them!!!! Especially as your only the next door neighbour

sod all school work - have you read up on pda ? The pda society states that 70 percent of kids are out of school 30 percent struggle. There is a panda poster too about picking battles blah blah. School work does not interest a pda child as it’s far too boring - it’s got to be something their into / their hobbies - it takes them all their energy just to exist in life.

look up Newbold hope on Facebook a lot of violent behaviour is that they can’t cope.

she’s lucky she is leaving the house - a lot of pda children are unable to leave their own home for years!!!!

eliza fricker has some good books - look it up on Amazon or “missing the mark”

poor child - if the mum has spare cash sign up to mindjam (if she’s into computers) its mentoring whilst playing games

I wish the best luck to the pda girl - I hope her mum gets some support

You need to treat the child as an adult - reason with them - have a plan that you are both happy with. you can’t “boss” them or tell them what to do - as they can’t understand. Working together is the only way that help a pda child

I actually do really like her and she me .

Today she gave me the biggest cuddle . I'm not awful to her - far from it . I'm just trying to support her mum and I've said we need to word things differently to ask her to do things . I do like this girl a lot and I'm very tolerant most of the time - no one else inc her family will babysit- I will and we have a lovely time when I do . She is funny and witty and we have a lovely girlie night , I paint her nails and we have a giggle . Please do t think I'm unsympathetic because I aren't . I just have boundaries.

I'm not awful to her

You are, telling an anxious ND 9y/o you will “lock her up and take her to the cells” is awful and is beyond “having boundaries”.

She sounds very much like my dd who was diagnosed with ASD aged 11. Highly anxious, needs to be in charge and prone to violent meltdowns if things don't go her way. People with more 'easier' kids with autism always have an air of superiority, no way would their child behave like that 🙄

I'm glad you had an "easy" time of it with your son, lucky you! As pp's have said you cannot compare one autistic child to another. And also girls with autism tend to present very differently to boys, in my experience. The friends of your son are most likely boys too are they?

One thing I will say is that around age 9 was the most difficult time for my daughter, hormones in the mix and social pressures in school becoming too much. Life was hell. 4 years on life is a little easier. But not much!

I think you are right to want to set boundaries around her shouting and being aggressive to her mother.

I am on a Facebook group for PDA parents and care givers and I read again again on patents not coping when the children are teenagers/young adults and they are put into care. This is so sad.
Its fine for these children to have autonomy over there own lives but they definitely need boundaries over non acceptable behaviour , and by that I mean physical violence .
When the little girl is calm and happy could you read stories about what to do if you feel
amgry and talk about ways of dealing with her emotions.
There definitely needs to be more support for these families from play therapists , educational psychologists etc.

Well - I got two enormous hugs today .

I baby sat this morning then we went to watch her mum at an event , we had a lovely day , when I asked if she wanted to travel home with her mum or me - she said me .
So we left slightly earlier than mum , went to shops , I got her a little treat and we came home .

I am now definitely a trusted adult . And yes I set boundaries- but her reaction today tells me while she might kick off when I do , she secretly likes me . I felt in top of the world today when I got not one but two hugs . She's absolutely lovely at times - and others ......dont ask ! She has my phone number, she often texts me , and I hope she will always feel I'm someone else she could go to if she can't manage. It's clear the more I get to know her the more I see Judy how unable she is to articulate her feelings. It's all just feelings . I get exhausted just watching her sometimes. I'm far from the bad guy - she trusts me . She can trust me to show her not to good side , but she also knows I've got her back . And her mums .

You know what else -? I think she likes me BECAUSE I set boundaries and she knows exactly where she stands with me . It's easy for her to negotiate what I will and wiont tolerate. It's easy for her .

It's clear she cannot read situations. So I make it really easy . I wont tolerate xyz. Everything else we can talk about . And she is like the bloody Spanish Inquisition.
Why's your hair curly
Why aren't your blinds open
Why aren't you dressed
Where have you been
Why
Why why why why

And even when she's cross with me ....
The next question I can hear from her garden is

Where's vicar ? Why's vicar not here ? Why did vicar go in ?

She's a funny little onion . I have a lot of time for her .

One can be liked, become a trusted adult and set boundaries without telling an anxious ND 9y/o you will “lock her up and take her to the cells”.

Oh ffs unless you know her you E no idea - it worked . She's clearly not distressed by it . I really do t care what your opinion of me is . It stopped her without having to touch or restrain her .

I don’t need to know you or the child to know what I posted in my pp.

Aye ok

Kristy Forbes is also worth looking up on PDA parenting - she has some good videos.