How to understand if child has SEN

[ouch12345]

Hi, I've posted before about DD(5) and I really don't know what to do at the moment, I really need some advice, I'm sorry about the length of this post.

Her behaviour is becoming increasingly challenging and I don't know what route to take.

We have always had quite extreme problems with her losing her temper since being a toddler, I remember posting when she was 2 about a screaming tantrum that lasted for 5 hours.

I'm just unsure as to whether her behaviour is typical of a 5 year old or we need to get some additional help, or actually I'm just shit at parenting. For background there is a history of ADHD in the family.

I adore her and she is a very very sweet little girl but 50% of the time her behaviour is just completely out of control. An example this morning, DD(3) has been awake all night with a vomiting bug and is asleep in bed, I've had 2 hours sleep for the last 2 nights and was sleeping on the floor of her room. DH told her that I needed to catch up on sleep and to leave me for a little bit and was cuddling her. She starts uncontrollably screaming in order to wake me up, she scratches her dad and draws blood runs through to the room and climbs onto the floor for a cuddle. Her dad has lost his temper already and is shouting at her to leave the room and that her behaviour is disgusting etc. I told him to leave her and I'd give her a cuddle as I was just knackered. Her sister has obviously woken up now so as she's lying on the floor with me she starts kicking her (not hard) but to try and provoke a reaction. I told her that it wasn't kind explained how she had been poorly she just loses it and starts screaming. I'm trying to talk to her and understanding why she is so angry but DH is getting more and more annoyed as this is a daily occurrence. She starts aiming fury at him, she hates him, she wishes she had a different daddy etc, screams at him, bites him and kicks him. this type of thing is just every day, probably a twice a day occurrence, the usual trigger is regarding wanting to do something with me rather than her dad or not being able to do something (e.g watch telly).

These occurrences are just so frequent, there seems to be out of control screaming from her at least twice a day. She can be very very sweet with DD2 but also have seen her deliberately try and wind her up when she thinks I'm not looking.

After she has had this the only thing that will calm her down is having a cuddle and then she will be sorry and apologise to everyone.

After she's calmed down I'll explain to her that because she's done xyz that means that she can't watch telly for the day etc which will then cause another huge outburst and more screaming. I don't know if this is the right thing to do as advice is so conflicting.

I'm trying to keep the approach if she is so little and she can't control these huge emotions she's having, she genuinely can't when she is screaming it's really absolute rage that she is letting out. I'm trying to talk to her about it and explain why she can't do / have something and not give in but remain calm. DH finds it so hard especially as he is often the brunt of these rages and ends up being scratched or screamed horrible things at.

I spend a lot of time with her, I work part time and do pick ups and drop offs every day, DH is also very hands on and she gets 1:1 time with both of us.

I've read so many books on 'explosive children' 'calm parent happy kids' etc but it just all feels so out of control.

In school her behaviour is brilliant, she is well behaved, listens to instructions, has lots of friends, ahead in reading and maths and her teacher thinks she's doing really well.

I just feel at my wits end with this, I thought it was maybe normal behaviour but DD2 very very rarely loses her temper at all and she is prime age for tantrums.

So can anyone offer any advice? Do you think this is potentially a sign of ADHD? ODD? I think if I take her to the GP it will just get shrugged off anyway as I have previously spoken to them about it, Or is this just her personality? Thanks if you've got this for and TIA for any advice. Sorry again for long post.

[TeenPlusCat]

If she can behave at school, have you considered ASD? Children often hold it together in school and then it all comes out at home. ASD presents differently in girls to boys and girls tend to get diagnosed later.

[ouch12345]

Thanks for your response @TeenPlusCat yes, I was just expecting for maybe her teacher to have noticed something about her behaviour that might signal this, maybe being distracted easily, not listening, daydreaming etc but her teacher says she is really switched on in school. She said to me 'she could run the class' which just doesn't seem to match up. She is also very organised and likes to be early. She is always asking me to right lists in case she forgets something.

[ouch12345]

DH has also flagged this as unusual behaviour for a 5 year old wanting to right lists in order not to forget as she gets quite stressed out about it things like: remember to put my grow clock on before I go to bed, remember to set two alarms in case I don't hear one (she never sleeps past either alarm), remember that I would like to watch x movie this weekend.

[ouch12345]

*write

[ouch12345]

Sorry I've just realised you said ASD, not ADD, would you expect her to have poor communication skills with this as her communication is really good (when she's not screaming). She makes friends easily, makes eye contact, was an early talker etc. loves role play.

[TeenPlusCat]

I don't really know about ODD and ADHD but I would have thought that maybe they would be obvious in all settings, which is why I wondered about ASD as I know many children appear to cope at school but then need the valve of release at home.

I would also imagine that a child with ASD can also be naughty and the difficulty for you is distinguishing between 'SN' behaviour and 5 yo behaviour as you can't punish/consequence SN behaviour out of children.

Her behaviour sounds out of 'normal' to me.

[ouch12345]

Thank you @TeenPlusCat I agree, I haven't really considered ASD and don't know an awful lot about it as was more focused on family history of ADHD / ADD so will look into it. Thanks so much.

[TeenPlusCat]

x-post.

One of the girls I know with ASD is chatty, good eye contact etc. As I said, girls tend to present differently from boys and end up getting diagnosed later because of this.

[TeenPlusCat]

All these conditions overlap somewhat.
(Over the years I have looked at ASD for my DD1 who has dyspraxia, and social communication issues, but she doesn't seem to meet the criteria and certain presents differently from other girls I know with ASD.)

[TeenPlusCat]

www.staffordshire.gov.uk/Education/Access-to-learning/Graduated-response-toolkit/School-toolkit/Communication-and-interaction/Social-communication-autism/SEN-support-in-school/Autism-in-Girls-checklist.pdf

[ouch12345]

@TeenPlusCat

www.staffordshire.gov.uk/Education/Access-to-learning/Graduated-response-toolkit/School-toolkit/Communication-and-interaction/Social-communication-autism/SEN-support-in-school/Autism-in-Girls-checklist.pdf

Thanks so much for sending this over, I really appreciate it. I can definitely recognise some of the behaviours but a lot of the EY social points are really off, she has a lot of friends mostly girls and is a very very interested in playing with them; especially imaginative games. It's so hard to understand what is going on, she hits a lot of points on checklists for a lot of things and then so far off on other points.

[TeenPlusCat]

We've come to the end of my knowledge!
Hopefully someone else with more experience will be along soon.

[ouch12345]

@TeenPlusCat really helpful thanks so much

[LightTripper]

I would also not rule out ASD. My daughter is autistic and although her autism clearly impacts social stuff too, I have other friends with autistic girls who are very social. Autism is really a mix of sensory, social and attention differences - you could think of it like sliders on a mixing desk - with some slid up and some down. Every child is different. Autism often coexists with ADHD which can also look very different to either condition alone. My friend's very social daughter (who they always thought probably had ADHD) has just been told she likely has ASD also. There will generally be social differences (i.e. differences in social communication) - but that doesn't necessarily mean that somebody is anti-social or won't have friends - particularly if they have ADHD as well.
the-art-of-autism.com/understanding-the-spectrum-a-comic-strip-explanation/

The exploding at home after holding it together in school is very autistic (but it may be consistent with other conditions too).
www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/education/different-behaviour-between-school-and-home

Some of the anxiety type behaviour sounds a bit like a PDA presentation of autism (PDA is a terrible name: it's more to do with anxiety and needing control - but it is what it is. "Rational Demand Avoidance" might be better!) The PDA society has some great materials on parenting - but it seems likely that school is probably at the root of a good deal of her anxiety, so you may need to try to figure out which parts of school she finds hard and try to get accommodations for those so that she doesn't have so much pent-up overwhelm to process when she gets home.
www.pdasociety.org.uk/

Look in particular at section 3.2 on this page re: traits which seems a pretty good fit for how you describe your daughter?
www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda-menu/identifying-assessing-pda/
a. Resists and avoids the ordinary demands of life
b. Uses social strategies as part of the avoidance
c. Appears sociable on the surface, but lacking depth in understanding
d. Experiences excessive mood swings and impulsivity
e. ‘Obsessive’ behaviour, often focused on other people
f. Appears comfortable in role play and pretend, sometimes to an extreme extent (this feature is not always present)

Kristy Forbes also writes some excellent stuff about PDA parenting (she is Autistic, ADHD and PDA and has kids with autism/PDA):
www.kristyforbes.com.au/

I would definitely continue to pursue possible SEN in general, and then just keep an open mind as to what precisely is going on.

[ouch12345]

@LightTripper thank you SO much for your response, I appreciate you taking the time to write that out so much. I'm going to look through all the links now. So kind of you.

[LightTripper]

Not at all - just reading your description was really ringing bells for PDA so I think it's really worth looking into and maybe trying some of the parenting strategies (which are probably not so different from a lot of the "Plan B" Ross Greene stuff - but sometimes your DD may not even have the capacity to participate in that if she's exhausted and melting down - but she's really young, hopefully she will be more able as she gets older, if you can get some proper support from school).

Wishing you lots of luck.