Schools advice (a bit long-winded...)

[silverfrog]

Dd1 is going to be starting school this Sept. She will be 4 in august, and has ASD. she is verbal, but it is mostly echolalic (sometimes appropriately, eg she can comment on the activity she is doing, but mostly not (she just loves the sound of her voice! )) She currently goes to mainstream pre-school for 3 mornings a week, and is settled there and coping ok, but doing little more than coping. She has started doing a whole lot more sensory play etc since she has been there, so she is progressing, but equally she barely communicates with the staff (let alone the children) and seems to tolerate her time there rather than enjoy it. She has a 1-to-1 there.

The options for schooling are as follows:

State primary: we have a reasonable chance of getting a place at a good, small primary. The school buildings are great (very small, really just a corridor with the classrooms on one side and the hall on the other so no chances to be overwhelmed), and the current head is also great but is leaving. Dd's SENCO already supports children at the school and is happy that the staff there try their hardest. We are in the middle of getting dd statemented, so no idea what her support would be. We are prepared to have to fight to get her enough support (and this is where it gets difficult - dd is "no trouble" at pre-school, and would probably be no trouble at school either. It is easy to get her to comply, but compliance is not understanding or being involved, and is not good enough IMO. Dd deserves more than to be marking time at school.)

Private primary: we have her name down at local, very nice, prep school. It is a school which claims to cater for all comers, and I believe it does so for all levels of NT. Not so sure about SN though (as in "all levels" of SN - they are good at supporting the less severe end). Again, dd's SENCO supports children there, and is again happy that the school will co-operate. This would be the school that we would probably choose for dd2. If dd1's general skills were more advanced I would have little hesitation in sending her there. However she has hardly progressed at all over the last year and there is now a huge gulf between her and her peers. She would be put into the nursery year though, which would at least gain her the extra year that she would forgo in state (curse that summer birthday!), which might mean that by Reception she may have consolidated enough to cope. There is the added problem of all the extras at private school, which are wonderful opportunities but not hugely relevant to dd (all the extra art resources like pottery/CDT, and the extra languages taught from early on etc)

My gut feel is that she will be lost in mainstream schooling, whether private or state. I am half thinking about keeping dd out of school this year and starting up a home ABA programme, but we would lose the place at the good local state for sure, and then if she doesn't develop enough to cope at the private school then we are stuffed.

We are looking into special school places - but it's like getting blood out of a stone talking to dd's SENCO about them. why she has decided it's a no-go for dd I'm not sure, but she has re-interpreted our questioning whether dd would cope in mainstream into "we want dd to be in mainstream school" which is certainly not the case! we want dd to go somewhere she will be able to achieve and develop.

I suppose what I am asking (if oyu have made it this far!) is - what would you do?

apologies for the mammoth post, and thanks if you managed to bear with me!

1. Insist on looking at special schools. I wish I had done that when ds1 was 4 instead of believing that 'because he is coping in a ms nursery he will go to a mainstream school' . What rubbish - it was a disaster- you need to as/insist an Ed Psych (rather than SENCo)

2. Private primaries can work well- providing (imo) language skills are up to at least approximating 'normal'. I would be cautious about sending a child with limited speech/language to a private school....

except.....

3. if it was part of an ABA program. I know a couple of people who have done this part time- and often private can work out better as there's usually less hassle about the ABA tutors going in as shadows.

Agree with Yurt that a combination of ABA plus private small school (mainly for the small class sizes actually) would be perfect. My DS is also 4, also ASD, and we have been doing ABA at home for 2 years. Also during that time we tried a special school (nursery) that did him no good at all. He is now in a mainstream class two afternoons a week, with an ABA shadow, and the rest of the time is at home doing ABA. I think it's a good combination, but not sure the school will keep him as my DS is the more hyper end of the ASD spectrum and the teacher has already pronounced herself "scared" of him, though he is not scary at all and in fact, with 26 3 year olds running round the small room, she has admitted herself that she pretty much leaves my DS to his shadow. If I could find a private school with smaller class sizes, which would take DS and also let me be his shadow, that would be my dream ticket. That said, there is another ASD child in this mainstream school who sounds like your DD - eg much more the compliant, quiet end of autism spectrum, and he is thriving there, with now very little home ABA and a full school programme. Every child is different and I can't say what's best for you - but for me, the chance for your DD to have a go at mainstream (small class sizes and therefore private if you can afford) plus doing ABA for the intensive one-to-one teaching on academics and behaviours at home would be excellent. My experience of special school was that my DS learnt that he could get away with bad behaviour (eg refusing to sit down, running around screaming) because all the other kids were also doing it. In one term at mainstream he has learnt not to do those things, and actually sits down with the 25 others for juice and for register (a sight I thought I would never see!). I also have an ASD stepdaughter who has done very well in mainstream, and is now without a shadow in a private secondary school. Each to his or her own, and I may be singing a different tune if they chuck my DS out of mainstream at the end of this year, but that's my long-winded thoughts! Good luck!

I think its depends on the school though. In 4 terms at mainstream ds1 didn't manage more than 1 minute (literally) in assembly. After a term at special school he was managing hour long assemblies. My Mum saw him in an assembly for the first time this Christmas and was staggered that he sat so calmly watching for over an hour.

We have not even tried him in assemblies yet Yurt, so maybe you are right and I just got a dud special school!

I agree go & have a look for yourself at the sn schools, you'll get an idea if they are suitable for your dd.
DS2'S request for statement was turned down as he was "coping" at ms pre school because he is totally compliant & therefore was not disruptive.
He has a 1 to 1 funded by the school while his statement is going through. The school have much more of an idea & also don't think that a child should just "attend", so hopefully your dd will get the statement she deserves.
Sometimes because they expect much less of a child at preschool they don't look ahead to how they will cope at big school.

God, it's all such a dilemma, isn't it? Thanks vey much for your thoughts - I really appreciate you wading through all that!

I suppose that part of the answer is to get ABA set up asap, as that would give some structure to home life, and we might then get a clearer picture of what she may be capable of. We are also off to BIBIC at the end of the month, and hope to get a straight talking assessment form them.

dd would appear to be very capable (knew shapes/colours before she was 2, has an avid interest in books and quotes them endlessly, can count and knows her alphabet as sequences and we are working on the relevance part) but has made little progress in these areas in the last year or so. She has become more outgoing (at least at home)but does not demonstrate any of this at pre-school, and I worry that this is going to become the pattern for her. she is also becoming more and more apprehensive/wary of other children, and this is not a good thing.

Currently the plan is to put in dd's school application for state place, and see what we get offered. we have the place at private as she was held over form last year to give her a chance to mature a bit. we also have a couple of appts at special schools to see how they operate/whether they would be suitable and will take it from there. I do worry that dd might learn more bad habits than good ones though, as she is usually more than willing to take the p*ss... She had 3 members of staff involved with trying to get her to identify shapes last term (1-to-1, pre-school worker and portage worker) and it was only when portage woman said (after about 20 mins)"but dd, you did all this at home with me yesterday" that dd co-operated (she still said (correctly) "that's a green triangle" rather than showing them the blue circle they were asking for. she can be a bit stroppy like that!)

everyone involved with dd is mystified by her - most people (inc professionals) have, until this year, been amazed when we say she is autistic, yet once they get to know her are amazed that she is able to cover up what is in some examples almost severe autism so well. Sigh.

Does she use speech to ask for stuff as well as echolaically (sp?). ABA has been very good at coaxing words out of my DS for requests - they call them "mands" or demands. This is the bit of ABA which has been a lifesaver for me, that and controlling / changing bad behaviours. Your DD sounds like a very different child, but it certainly couldn't hurt to try it?

She is very well able to ask for what she wants (long suffering mum emoticon), alhtough she still uses echolalic speech to do so eg

dd: I'd like some... (generic request starter)
me: what would you like, dd?
dd: would you like some puzzle (brandishing said maisy puzzle at me)

and, currently (as it's nearly tea time)
dd: let's go home and have some lunch
me: we are at home dd
dd: lunch at home

etc.

Ok, I am no expert on echolalia, but I am pretty sure ABA would start to use prompts and rewards for her using , say , "I would like lunch". They are very big on making it fun so the child is motivated to do well. It sounds like it would not take much to get her speech really good - my DS is more at the single word, mispronounced stage - eg at the moment he is shouting down at me "DD" which means he wants a DVD turned on, or he will say "i key" for ice cream

This is still a year or more away from me as DS is only 4 this March but I am thinking ahead. There is an autism specific SN school just a stone's throw from where we live so I feel it is likely 'they' will want him to go there rather than attempt mainstream inclusion but no one has said anything yet so I really don't know. It is hard for me to assess where he is on the ASD spectrum as I have had only fleeting contact with other ASD children. His speech is light years away from that of a normal nearly 4 year old but he can ask for most things he wants with one word requests and he can say mini phrases like 'car gone' and ' escalator broken' ( which he is not pleased with). He is good with puzzle sorting games though we have not taught him the names of the shapes yet or the colours. He can point to and name most of the animals in his animal A to Z book so I feel we probably could teach shapes and colours at some point though I suppose colours might be a tricky concept?

I have a similar dilemma with DS but he is rather saved by having an October birthday. He is now 4.3 and the improvement in speech in the last year has been astounding. We think we're probably going to go with the private school with the small class sizes but will make a final decision as late as possible.

Moira - funny, our DS's are virtually the same age. DS' speech is very delayed, so I am very worried about starting school in Sept 08.

DS hasn't got a diagnosis, I suspect if he ever does get assessed then diagnosis would be HFA. Re:colour s/shapes - it may not be as hard to teach as you expect, since it's so visual. Do you use any PECs or signing at all? PECs can help build up longer phrases/sentences, as there's a visual reminder of the words iyswim.

I wish we could afford ABA+private school for DS, but that would be ideal.

As it is, we've spent our very last penny on ABA - been doing this for over a year now, with fantastic results. BUT DS due to start at a ms primary with 30 children per class on Monday, and I just know he's not going to be able to focus (and therefore learn) with so much distraction. Got a tribunal hearing in 5 weeks' time which will hopefully order continuation of the ABA programme.

Just a thought - if you're going to commit yourself to ABA, your chances of getting funding for it will be significantly reduced if your DD attends a special rather than a ms school. Ditto private school - if you can't get the LEA to specify a private school in her statement (not likely without a big fight, tribunal etc.), and you decide send her there and pay school fees yourself, then they are under no obligation to fund any support there for her.

Well can't give any advice yet as we are about to transfer DS2 (5 and in reception) from special to m/s (state). He will do 5 mornings there and 5 afternoons ABA at home. We have no shadow but school seem very keen to liaise with us. I'm trying a softly softly approach - having got them to agree to p/t school my next job is to persuade the Head to pay his TA to do some ABA training at home with us.

Our problem with the special school wasn't behaviour related but to do with language. There aren't any other verbal children in his class and therefore the focus of the staff is (quite rightly) less on speech and more on alternative methods of communication. He also needs more 1:1 teaching, which he'll get at m/s as he's funded for 1:1 all the time.

DS2 is at a similar stage to Aquarius's DS - single word mands with some two word phrases. I agree that ABA would really help your DD's speech Silverfrog - have you looked at VB? There's a book by Partington and Sundberg - Teaching Language To Children with Autism - which is my bible!

Good book tip Sphil, will get that. I am also determined to teach my ASD son to read, even though everyone thinks I am mad as he has so few spoken words. But what I've managed to teach him so far, using the jolly phonics video, is the first 5 phonic sounds. It may take me years, but I can recommend that video as on the menu there is a bit where a nice lady just says "p" while the screen shows a big p, and "a" etc. My boy sits mesmerised for the 1 min or so it takes her to get through 5 sounds, and he has pretty much now learned to recognise s, a, t, i, p, and n. Sorry, ranting on, but I am excited that he now knows a is a, and p is p! It gives me something to show his m/s teacher too, as she seems to think he will never be able to learn anything!

Ooh - good idea! We don't have the video, only the CD of the songs, but I remember Ds2 liked them when DS1 was using them in Reception.

Ds1 is four and a half, ASD, and moved from the special nursery he was at into the special school its attached to full time this Monday (7th). I could not be happier with the choice and how well they are at understanding him. The routines are clearly set out, they give the children help at mealtimes, the classes are small and they use a lot of visual prompts. We were told that it was the best environment for him and luckily I wanted him to go there as well. I think that he is more likely to progress and improve his functioning skills in that school than if he'd have been in a mainstream setting. He may transition to mainstream later on, but for now where he is is definitely the best place for him.

Many thaks for all your input. will have another read through to digest properly.

Thanks for book and dvd tips - will look them out (a also on a mission to get dd reading, as really think it would open her world up - I was a freak hyperlexic child and soooo much of my learning came from reading. dd has the same obsessional interest in books and would love to get her reading even if judst a little)

I share some of the concerns mentioned herere special school - the modelling of undesirable behaviours, possible lack of support for speech development etc. There's no easy answer, really, is there?