Not strictly SN - but I feel some of you 'know' DS1, so here goes...

[sphil]

This is a copy of a thread I started in Primary Ed earlier this evening. Have had no replies yet, so am turning to my trusty friends here! Any pearls of wisdom, especially from primary teachers, would be much appreciated!

DS1 is 6.5 and in Year 2. I've been increasingly worried about his writing since he started school. It's partly a motor skills problem (he has dyspraxic traits) but also a question of output and the ability to get ideas down on paper. I have no idea of the standard he 'should' be achieving at his age.

To give an example- tonight he wrote a letter to the tooth fairy (he woke up this morning with a tooth missing - we think he swallowed it!)This is what he wrote:

Dey toof ferey
My toof has fell awt.
Love DS1

It took him about 15 minutes, most of which was spent squirming, fidgetting, dropping his pencil etc. I deliberately didn't help him at all - I wanted to see what he could do unaided, as I normally have to prompt him for almost every word.

Is this just 'normally' under average, iyswim, or something I should be going into school and banging cymbals about?

oh sphil. I can't really help but couldn't bear you to have two threads unanswered (didn't see the other one) so I will try I would have thought that was not fantastic but not out of the normal range to be honest, especially for boys. Dd would have written a bit more at that age but certainly wouldn't have spelt the words any better than that. Ds at that age would have had good spelling but it would be like getting blood out of a stone (I am getting my tenses muddled myself here!)

I think the spelling is phonetic (apart from dey), which isn't bad for a 6 year old. He obviously gets the 'ey' thing, which is good. I think the fact that he WOULD write with the motor difficulties is good - my son won't write except under extreme pressure. But if you're concerned, I would talk to the SENCO/ teacher and ask whether he's achieving age appropriately.

Not much help to you but DD would have produced a letter of a similar length at the same age - but it would have taken equally as long (if not longer) with all the jiggling & procrastination

His spelling does generally follow phonetic 'rules'. I can even see where he's coming from on 'dey' (he's thinking 'de - yer'.

Oh well, better toddle upstairs and do my toof ferey duty...

These posts are very reassuring btw!

hope the toof ferey leaves him a little extra something for writing a nice note

I'm not much help when it comes to giving a comparison as my ds1 has had a lot of problems with writing. Like Tamum's ds his spelling was/is good but the physical act of writing was almost excruciating to watch.

Having seen how much progress ds1 has been able to make with the right help, I would say that it's definitely worth speaking to someone at the school about.

I agree that he's using phonics. Initially ds2 learned to read via sight reading- so when he tried to spell he either got it totally correct, or it was completely and utterly random (zebra might start with a p for example). As he's started using phonics as well his spelling errors are getting more like your ds1's.

I'd really really really recommend Dr Marion Blank's book on literacy- she talks about reading & writing. She's also bringing out a book about teaching literacy to children like ds1 (!!) I bought the book el cheapo on Amazon (the standard one). If you can't work out which one it is let me know and I'll look it up later (sorry have to dash to work now).

DS2 is 7 in a few weeks, so a similar stage I guess. He writes phonetically too- and tbh I'd be quite chuffed with that letter as he currently uses toof and luv. he's just been diagnosed as dyslexic though (milder end of scale imo).

I would say, esp. for a boy, not outside the bounds of normality.

Don't have LO's at that stage yet, but I remember having real problems writing as a child of that age and older - my mum thinks I had some mild motor issue, I still have very messy handwriting. I had real problems reconciling the speed my brain thought at with the speed my hands wrote ... so if you asked me to tell a story it would be long and complex but if I had to write it down it would be much like your DS's. So I'm wondering if it's similar - just the struggle to get the intention down on paper interferes with the sense iyswim.

You are all so lovely - I am going to post ALL my questions on SN from now....cooking, holidays, nits, getting rid of the rat in the garden...

CT - I think your DS1's experience might be relevant in fact (as you know, we do think that DS1 might have some AS traits as well as dyspraxia). What sort of help did the school give him? Ds1 is supposed to be getting some OT help via a special handwriting group, but it's yet to materialise - something I'm intending to chase school about next week.

Thanks for the book recommendation Yurt - will look up now.

r3dh3d - I'm sure you're right about the brain/hands thing. This morning on the way to school we were talking about what will happen when DS2 (5, ASD), starts to lose his teeth. DS1 said that he would write a note to the tooth fairy explaining that DS2 didn't understand about her. When I asked him what he'd write he came out with about five articulate sentences, using complex vocabulary and connectives. So very similar to you! If it's not too personal a question, how did you do at school? Did you find it hard, or discover ways to compensate?

Yurt - have looked up Marion Blank on Amazon and can only find a book called 'The Reading Remedy'. All others are unavailable atm. If you could find the exact title for me I'd be grateful - I can try Abebooks, who seem to be able to source anything!

hey Sphil - you got some responses on the primary board also

ds is nt and always struggled with writing(bit of a boy thing?) in primary it was a nightmare. would take him forever just to write a small thing. he is 15 now and it is better but not brilliant.
(just wanted to let you know your not alone)

Ds1 is the other way around. He has the HFA dx but would easily fit most of the criteria for dyspraxia.

Ds1 started off with playdoh exercises. For about 5 minutes a day he had to roll and squeeze playdoh into different shapes. It doesn't sound like a lot but it really made a big difference over time.

He was also given grips to use on his pencil. The best one was a long triangular prism shaped one. It made it easier for him to hold on to the pencil without dropping it all the time. It also helped with the problem ds1 had where he would grip the pencil so tightly that it made his hands hurt.

Ds1 also had problems with forming letters so had lots of extra practice with that, using everything from sand to the interactive whiteboard thingy.

The school realised that ds1's squirming about on the seat was because he was finding it hard to sit upright on his seat. He was concentrating so much on trying to get comfortable that he wasn't able to do much else. He was given a small rubbery cushion to put on his chair, which means he can now sit still.

Ds1 also uses a sloped board for doing his writing on. It means that his paper is in a better position for him and he no longer tries to write at strange angles.

He still can't write as quickly as the other children but has come a long way. I started a thread on SN back when he was in Yr1 as his teacher had warned me that ds1 would probably need a laptop or something similar for writing as ds1 got further up the school. He's now in Yr3 and I can't honestly see him needing that kind of help any more.

I think some MN'ers have also had good results with "Write from the Start". Martianbishop's ds has had good results with it IIRC. There are a couple of threads somewhere in the MN archives.

yep it is the reading remedy (it's about writing/spelling as well)).

DS2 (7 in yr 2) NT. I would be quite pleased if he wrote this, I feel he is behind although his teacher assures me he is within the 'normal' range. I think I spend too much time compairing him to DS1 (my HF AS genuius LOL).

Hi Sphil
I was very interested to read your post, as my DS2 is also 6.5 and in year 2 and most definately has some issues with writing!! I have just asked him to write out the same words as your OP, and this is what I got:

Der toof fwe me tof hs fell (couldn't read the next bit - neither could he) Lof xxxxxx

He did this in 5 mins (you can probably tell)
All the words ran into one another with no gaps, and the majority went under the ruled lines. This should re-assure you (makes me want to cry though

I'm so glad I started this thread!

CT - the Playdoh idea is a good one. DS1 had his eye on a playdoh machine last week, which would involve rolling it into tubes and feeding it into the machine. I might relax my hard hearted stance and get it for him! He used pencil grips in Reception but refuses to now - he doesn't want anything that makes him look different. For that reason a sloping board and/or seat cushion would probably be out too - but I will talk to his teacher next week about his posture and the fidgeting. He's much better at home when he's sitting on his Tripp Trapp chair - the toof ferey note was written sitting on a swivel chair, which I guess is the worst possible seat for someone dyspraxic! Actually I think his grip and hand position are both fine now - but he seems unable to sit still. We use Write From The Start but doing it regularly enough is a problem. He has quite a lot of homework which I try to spread across the week to avoid Sunday meltdowns (mine) and if DH isn't home I can't leave DS2 to sit with DS1 while he does handwriting practice....well you know how it is!

I do wonder if it's now not so much a fine motor problem as a motor planning/processing/focusing difficulty.

I'm very reassured by all your posts - part of the problem is that DS1 seems to be in a class full of mini geniuses and so it's very hard for me to tell what's 'normal'.

Oh and Trunkybun - DS1's words run into one another and over/under the lines too!

I used to use those triangular pencil grippers*, ( I'm dyslexic) they made some imporovemnet but ;ike your son I found them a bit embarrasing at school.There are reguar pencils out there that are triangluar, personally I like using a propelling pencil better than a regular one. I have some regular but triangluar pens that I like too.

• my mum now uses them as her fingers are V arthritic.