Can you help me help my daughter?

[mankyscotslass]

I posted this in Behaviour as I was unsure of where to post, but have been pointed in this direction.
DD is in nursery with a lovely little boy who is on the Autistic spectrum. He has taken a real liking to my dd, but is very physical in how he expresses it, and DD is not coping very well as she is not an overly demonstrative little girl. She gets really upset if she comes near her,and hates it when he tries to touch/kiss/cuddle her. I think she feels threatened because he is in her space without her permission.
She is now saying she dosen't want to go back to nursery. Nursery are aware of the issue, and we have tried teaching her to say "No I don't like that" and to go and do something else, which worked for a week or so, but things have regressed again. Spoke to nursery this morning, and they said they had been advised not to seperate them, but to hold out for DD being able to handle this/deal with it. At the end of the day she is only just coming up to her 4th birthday, and at the moment it looks like there is a better chance of hell freezing over. I am just looking for ways to help her cope really. They move groups around at the start of the new term in January, but I have a horrible feeling by that point dd is going to be so traumatised she will be put off the place for life - it's part of the primary she will be attending, and the little boy will also be going to the school. So we do need to have a workable coping strategy for her.
She seems quite content to be friendly with him from a distance, and will say hello and goodbye when we meet when out, but is just not comfortable with him being so in her face, so I am pretty sure a play date to help get to know him better is not a good idea just now...

As the mother of a 5 year old with ASD who is also very physically affectionate, I would want the nursery to be working with my son on when/who it was appropriate to touch. Having said that, I would also be delighted that he was interacting with another child and wouldn't want to discourage that - this may be the nursery's point of view as well.
Does the boy understand signs? We've found that saying 'DS2, stop!' and doing the 'stop' sign (hand flat out in front like a policeman holding up traffic) or saying 'DS2, no hugging X' and doing the the 'no' sign (hand held in same way but sweeping across the body) works better than just the word on its own. It might make your daughter feel more confident too. I think it's a bit much to expect a nearly four year old to be able to handle it if she really doesn't like it.

DS1 isn't always comfortable with DS1 wanting to hug him and he's 6 and his brother! We just do what I've suggested above and say 'No hugging DS1 today. He doesn't want it'.

It's going to be difficult potentially, he may well simply not understand no thank you (I have 2 asd children, one would understand, the other wouldn't)

There's a book you can get called my brother is different- it can be used with any child in this age group really, its aimed at the early years crowsd, if you want to borrow my copy am more than happy- cat me if you would, it just talks about the basics of ASD etc.

Nursery shoudl be able to call in the LEA for help given that your daughter is becoming distressed, and they should do that. Beyond that there's little anyone much can do unbless the little ASD chap has a statement pending, in which case helping him manage his behaviours around your daughter could be a factor (or on an IEP but again this would then be at nurserys discretion, whereas a statement wouldnt be). Sadly even the aprents are limited in what they can do- for example, we were desperate to send DS3 to SN school to avoid this sort of situation (and have a look at the post I am about to put up in SN after this realting to DS!), but the LEA refused and that was that- there's nothing in the way of a choice option in many LEA's, sadly.

Ask the Nursery to call the natinal autistic society for advice, they have a decent website and can help teachers as wella s famillies.

I do sympathise as I ahve this from both sides- as well as having asd kids, DS1 is being bullied by a child with ADHD and it can be frustrating, I know that.

Thank you both for your replies/ Peachy, I may take you up on your offer, thanks. I will take a trip to our local library this week, they have quite a good parents/carers/sn section, which I had forgotten about. If no luck there i will CAT you.
I think if DD was a bit older it would probably be fine and we could explain it more to her, but she really isn't able to deal at the moment! The little boy is not so OTT with the others in their group, he really seems to have latched on to my dd and I have a feeling that her reactions are making it worse.

DS1 has a tendency to latch onto kids- he simply doesn't understand the mechanics behind friendships and that quite often they don't actually like him, its part of the social side of ASD for some kids. It can be very awkward.

Well, she is a happier creature this lunchtime, I just picked her up. They had asked her to wait with another group at home time, whilst keeping the other little boy in their group. No incidents today, and she hasn't meantioned his name, which is an improvement .
I am wondering whether the situation is worse at home time because they are all sat on the floor in their groups, and whether the problems also crop up at other "carpet times", in which case it should be more easily resolved. The nursery nurses again reassured me that they were looking at solutions, and hopefully the teacher will be back tomorrow. Will be going to library on wednesday to look at that book Peachy. Thanks again!

If its carpet times- something that worked for my ds3- Nursery bought him a special cushion that was all his own to sit on (to keep him still), they could try that and perhaps then just palce away from your daughter?

Taht way nobody is upset at being separated or anything and both get what they need.

Great idea Peachy, thanks again

My ds with asd had (still has) a real problem with allowing for personal space so the school gave him a carpet square- he chose colour-to sit on at carpet time and it stopped him getting on top of other kids- no longer needs it for carpet time.
Now trying to think of ways to stop him getting right up to others when he talks-really tricky and he gets sad at the kids reaction to him as he doesn't realise what he's done wrong.
School may be starting up a social learning group-fingers crossed.

Thanks wooga.
I just want my daughter to enjoy her nursery time again, as I am sure this little boys mum does too. it's so upsetting seeing her distressed. But equally I don't want the little boy or by extension his mum upset either. My daughter really can't help her reaction to him at the moment, and the nursery have said it upsets them to see her so distressed. The hand out "no I don't like that" seems to have lost it's effectiveness. Hopefully the ideas I have been given here will help, you have all been helpful thank you!

Sigh. Spoke to the nursery teacher this morning, who reassured me they were trying to resolve this with both children in mind. Then she had to peel dd off me to get her to go in, not crying but clinging and looking so sad. This is the girl who used to cry when I came to collect her,not wanting to go home. She has never had a problem at preschool or nursery up til
October, was always confident and excitied to go. I think I am going to have to speak the the teacher again, this is destroying my daughters enjoyment of nursery, she is so quiet and withdrawn on the way there now. I am going to ask if they can move her early to another group, immediately, or at least try the carpet square or the special cushion idea. I like those two!

Is he actually being physcial with her now, or is it that he is being 'odd' and she can't handle it. If its physical (by which I mean painful) then it becomes easier to the nursery to apply for extra funding for the boy (although it takes so long & is not guaranteed so might not help your dd). Certainly if your dd is getting physically hurt then you can be quite insistant that something is done and is done quickly.

However if it's that your dd is upset by his unusual behaviour then I think it's going to be harder to sort out and you have to be a bit careful. DS1 has almost never hurt another (non-sibling) child (he's severely autistic - 8 now- and apart from a 2 week bad patch at nursery has never gone for another child) but I have noticed that children either love him, or can't bear him. He doesn't invade their space- he's very very wary of other children (shudders if certain children touch him), but his behaviour is very odd and some children can't handle that. If this little boy is now not touching her or being overly physical- then really the situation becomes tricky.

Providing he's not touching inappropriately he is behaving appropriately for him iyswim even if the behaviour is off and unusual and frightening for some children and you won't get the odd behaviour to stop. In that case you either need to give your dd some ability to deal with it (eg by using the sibling books- I review a whole bunch of them here. Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick but you said she was frightened if he comes near her- if he comes near her to hurt her (intentionally or otherwise) then that needs to be stopped, full stop, but if his physical presence in the same room is scaring her then I think something to help her cope is going to be better. Some children find say children with feeding tubes scary and may need some help getting over that fear- if it's his oddness then thinking about it like that might be helpful.

Do talk to the nursery abut your dd's fears, but they may think its sorted because he's not actually hurting her iyswim. They may need to come up with something creative as a solution.

off?? odd I mean

god I think i lost the ability to write in sentence during that post. What I meant was that if the boy coming near her (but not actually doing anything) is scaring her then the nursery are in a difficult position as there's not a lot they can do. More very heavily supervised exposure (so she finds that children with autism/LD's) are not scary might help.

One idea- my 2 year old (NT) goes to play with a 4 year old autistic child as part of the autistic child's therapy. The therapist is with the children the whole time. DS3 absolutely ooves it (begs to go). Many children with ASD's doing home programmes are desperate for NT children to get involved in some way. Many home programmes are very professionally run. If you asked around I bet you'd find someone and it would expose your dd to unusual behaviours in a safe environment.

Dunno, just an idea- I've seen how much ds3 benefits from it.

Yurt, that's the thing, he isnt aggressive with her, just tries to kiss/cuddle her all the time and when she least expects it. She is only coming up to 4 and both myself and nursery have been trying to get her to deal with it a bit better, we found hand out "stop X I don't like it" worked well for a week or so but now although she says it the other child disregards it. She gets really distressed because he follows her around in order to be close to her, and is in her space so much. As far as I can tell he is only like this with DD. She does understand that all people are different, she is more aware of this as she has hypermobility which limits what she can do phisically and has a problem with one leg which means her walk/running gait is "different". I have tried approaching it from that way, but that hasnt't helped either. I know it's difficult for the nursery to sort, I agree they may need to be creative, it's just hard when she was so happy to go there in the past, and worrying as this is going to be her school enviroment until she leaves primary. I am going to get hold of the book Peachy recommended and see if that helps. Thanks for your advice

They could try a social story with him if he has the understanding for them. A social story for her might help as well "this is X, sometimes X cuddles me' etc, with photographs. There should be someone locally with the ability to write social stories- it may be more use for her than him (depending on his understanding).

Doh, I am daft....just rememberrd a friend of mine was a sn teacher before she had children. I will ring her later as I am sure she used to talk about "social stories"! Thanks for the idea

Just a little update. When I went to collect DD her teacher said that she had asked DD if she wanted to go into another group for the time being, and she said yes, so she is with a different group now. The strange thing is, it seems that as soon as she was given the space she needed, she was happier for the little boy to approach her. She also has been told that if she feels she wants to move back she can, and they will help with more talking about differnt people and feelings in nursery. The little boy was happier too, as DD wasn't getting distressed and confusing him. It's very early days, but hopefully this is a step in the right direction. I am still getting that book though Peachy!