does inclusion ever work??

[2shoescreepingthroughblood]

a couple of threads have made me wonder. I have never considered ms for dd and would fight to the death for her not to go into ms.
does it ever work?

I have a friend from another parenting site whose son has ASD. From what I can gather, he was pretty much non-verbal till he started school. He has done very well with the right support in mainstream. So for this family inclusion seems to have worked out OK.

So far inclusion has worked well for my two. The school has helped ds1 to make an enormous amount of progress. His teachers and the support staff have been wonderful and, at the risk of sounding OTT, I can't thank them enough. Ds1 has just gone into Yr3 and really enjoys school. There have been a couple of occasions where another child has tried to bully him but his teachers have always stopped it very quickly.

Ds2 has only been at school for a few weeks but is thriving there. He is always very keen to go. He's had a few problems related to his AS but the teacher and SENCO are dealing with those well.

So much seems to depend on the attitude of the school. Some of the stories I've read on MN have been heartbreaking. I think inclusion can work but only if there's enough support and resources available. Sadly this seems to be quite rare.

Glad that your DSs have got so much out of school.

CT - IIRC your DS2's language caught up by school age, did DS1 have expressive and receptive delay when he started school, and what did the school do to successfully help with this?

Yes inclusion works in lots of cases.

Yes I think it can work but it is less about meeting government targets & more about attitude.
DS2 goes to ms & has only been there a few weeks but I am hopeful it is the right place for him.
The school has 95 pupils 5 with statements for full time 1 to 1 support.
Plus others with sn, it has no special status or unit just a very good reputation for sn.

I do worry though as ds gets older & leaves the security of his little school if ms will remain the best place for him.

My DD is non-verbal, wheelchair user and attends the local ms school with SEN base, although she can't communicate she loves the other children talking and smiling to her. She does spend most of her day in the base, but gets the best of both worlds, with inclusion. I don't know whether we will keep her in MS for secondary.

TC - It's odd but even though ds2's language skills are much better than ds1's were at the same age, ds1 was taken off the list for actual therapy and just assessed each year. Ds2 OTOH is still on the list and the school gets advice from the SALT.

With ds1 the school used a lot of visual resources which helped him to understand what was going on. He also had an LSA for a few hours a week. The school also used ds1's ability to read (hyperlexia has been mentioned a few times) to build up his comprehension of language. He still has 'quirky' language but his comprehension is now very good. He was officially discharged from SALT about a year ago.

Ds2 has good expressive language but his comprehension is not as good. He struggles to understand anything other than the present tense. Things like he/she and positional language are also hit & miss with him. I haven't spoken to the SALT since ds2 started school but I think she will be giving them similar materials to the ones she's given us: lots of lotto-type games and pictures, with suggested activities. She will also be helping to set up a storyboard to help with expressive language. The idea is for the school to put one or two symbols on there to show what ds2 has been doing that day and talk about them with him. Ds2 also has some photos of the classroom and staff which we can use at home.

They've both been taught language in a similar way to how foreign languages are taught in schools. Nouns and then verbs so that they could put words together, followed by positional language (in/on/under/next to etc).

I think it can but depends on the school. I will send dd to MS (CP, non verbal) because she needs chattering children and interaction to learn. The SN school she goes to 2 mornings a week is full of non-moving non-verbal kids. Boring. They need chatter and bustle and comings and goings. They also need academic goals which I think SN schools negelct in favour of physical therapy and OT. Kids with disabilities need A levels like anyone else but many SN schools neglect academia and don't push them.
So I'd say it depends on the school and whatever the disability is.

Oh I don't know.

I fear for ds3's life when he starts school- little things such as he still mouths small objects etc and they are not set up to cope, and he could choke. We're also refusing them permission to take him outside school (they go regularly, Church etc) unless he has an adult holding his hand or reins- neither of which are available. DH and I are literally petrified of what could happen, but we're powerless in the decision. DS1 I just don't know about- intellectually he's bright but without access to specific ASD interevntions he'll never learn I don' think, I would rpefer these to be delivered in a MS setting for him (he benefits from the sports and music activities that aren't available at the local SN schools), but they're not, but then SN isn't available for him at this stage either.

ther's a child with Cp in ds2's class though- getting on fabulously. He has no learning diffcitulty though, physical (a pronopunced limp) and hearing. there were kids with physical disabilities in my class when I was at schol as well (including one with qute severe CP) and they did very well. So I guess it varies, I just wish LEA's would listen to the parents.

Oh and ds3's SALT provision has transferreed to the school team, so has stopped again as they have no links with this school (non LEA funded) and is unlikely to restart I would guess, the provision just vanished suddenly. He's still classed officially as pre verbal, although can now thread a few words together, sadly not understood by anyone much bar me. Not that SALt would know that, as they haven't seen him since August.

MS didn't work for my lad with Aspergers so I took him out. But hopefully it will go well for dd (bright but totally unable to move/sit/hold up head/no arm or hand function and non-verbal)
She'll need one to one and oddly enough, she'll get more at MS than she does at the SN school. There's 6 kids in her class at SN. All have statements requiring one to one. But there's only 4 staff. I have complained. I've pointed out that if dd is left on the floor she is totally helpless (the other kids have some hand function) but I'm told its not possible, that I'm 'making her dependant (yeah right, because being a severe quad is so liberating) I've gone on about the fact its in her statement. all to no avail. Yet at MS she'll have a personal assistant and so someone with her at all times.
Sheesh

Ah we had that 'making them dependant' line when we suggested that DS1's 1-1 be used to cover the lunchtimes when he was being bullied and hitting out . he is bleedin dependant- nota admittedly to the extent that your DD is NMC but nonetheless....

I think MS CAN work for the right children, I wonder if bright children with lower motor functions cope better than children with learning disabilities or social issues?

Such an interesting thread - as some of you know we are in a constant dilemma about where DS2 (5 with ASD) should go to school. Atm he goes to special school 3 mornings a week and does an ABA programme at home the rest of the time. But there' s only one boy in his class who's more verbal than him (and he spends half the week in ms). He is starting to show interest in other children now, though he only imitates and requests from older children - so I wonder whether he needs more verbal role models. And of course we have the same ironic situation as some of the other posters: at ms he would get 1:1, whereas at special it's 1:3 most of the time.

Still not sure - will continue where we are for now, but am busy doing lots of investigations at the ms school....

This is very interesting.

DS1 has managed very well so far in m/s but he is at the very very high-functioning end of the spectrum.

DS3 has a place in mainstream nursery (attached to the school) to start in January - he will have a statement by then - I am in total trepidation about it but I feel we have to give him a chance in m/s first before we try other options.

thanks for the detailed reply Coppertop, the last bit you put about teaching English as a foreign language really struck me, as that's definitely what it's been like with DS - subject/verb, the subject/verb object, we need to work on prepositions next I think! (oh and questions, and adjectives). But colours and counting are fine [hmmm].

good luck Sphil and Dinosaur and Peachy with the school placements, hope all works out well. I'm rather terrified about DS starting school (don't know whether he will be accepted by a language unit or not yet).

coppertop, that's very heartening for me to hear as your DS1 sounds very similar to my DS. The learning English like a foreign language strikes a big chord here as well - DS has a large vocabulary (he has certainly learned many, many words from books) but speaks what I would describe as weird pidgin English. What sort of things did the LSA help your DS1 with when he started school?

Dinosaur - did your DS1 have any extra support when he started?

my dd2 is in m/s Y2 and doing well. She has DS and a hearing impairment so her speech is very poor and slow to come.

She has a brilliant full time TA and the school has on the whole been very supportive - there have been a few niggles but overall they are good. Dd2 needs good peer role models because she learns primarily by watching other children, so being in m/s is extremely important for her. She is very happy and well-liked.

She attended a SN nursery before and that was a total disaster for her really. She made virtually zero progress in the 1.5 years she was there, not surprising really considering she was in a room full of other non-verbal children and, because she is so 'easy' was usually left to her own devices. She also started copying her classmates with autism (more than half the class) and was attacked on an almost daily basis - hearing aids pulled out, glasses broken, chunks of hair ripped out - wish I'd never sent her there.

M/s nursery was crap too btw - IME nursery staff just have far too little training to cope with children with SN properly.

I think outcomes are better the earlier the child enters mainstream. In my experience, the happiest best integrated children are those who have come up in the same group since nursery.
My ds(12) has always attended a PD/complex med school, never considered mainstream and it will be many years before I make a judgement on whether the decision was right.
However, a Yr 6 lad at our school is currently making the transition into MS one day a week, next week he's there for 3 days, after half term full time. My personal view is that this is the wrong time for it, but he and family very keen. I stress, HE is very keen.

LGS - Ds1 found using his hands very difficult so the LSA did a lot of work on that with him. She encouraged him to try to touch different textures while also helping him to build up the strength in his hands by using playdough and other materials. She also helped him to focus, as he had a tendency to just flit from one activity to another. She also used picture symbols with him to help build up his understanding. As ds1 became more confident and wanted to try to do things by himself she would stand back and let him but make sure that she was around in case he needed her. By the end of the year he had become so independent that it was agreed that he would start Yr1 without 1:1, with the option to give more help if he ended up needing it. He still had some 1:1 time with the TA but didn't need an LSA.

It's possible that as he gets further up the school he may need a statement but so far he's been getting the support he needs without one.

Oh coppertop, that's good to hear. The SENCO at DS' nursery is doing a lot of that sort of stuff with him now, with a view to getting him ready for mainstream so that he won't need a lot of 1 to 1 then (if I pick the right school).

The school I like best for DS had a display of stuff for promoting fine motor skills in one of the classrooms at the open day, and when I asked the teacher about poor pen grip she showed me a drawer full of lots of different types of foam grips for helping with that.

I teach in a special school and I think that you have to find the best school for an individual child. I've seen some cases where inclusion has been detrimental to the child's development and other times where inclusion is the best thing that could have happened to the child. It is also very dependent not only on the school but the class teacher and their attitude towards inclusion. My aim is to give the children the best possible education for them and I have pushed for 4 of the children who I have taught to be moved into mainstream. All of them successfully. I do think though that if they had not come into a special school for nursery / reception they may not have gone / stayed in mainstream. The intensive specialist teaching and support they get in a special school can be all they need to be able to cope in a mainstream setting. I have also taught one boy who went to mainstream reception (against advice of his nursery teacher) and who just could not cope. Once he came to us he was a different child and instead of being 'contained' for a couple of hours, on his own with a TA, in a makeshift room (the litercy storecupboard at the mainstream school) he joined a group of 6 pupils sat with the group for activities and stories and joined with other classes for singing. To be that is far more inclusive, even if it was in a special school.

The school where ds is at the moment is brilliant,they listen to us and have done everything they can to settle him in.However,some of the other kids are making things difficult for him as they can see he's "different" (he has HFA)I don't know what to do though,for instance he went on a school trip and a couple of them were making him do things like showing them his penis!Now I have explained to him previously that his body is private and he shouldn't go off with anyone or do anything that he's uncomfortable with but he said although he knew it was wrong he did it although he was embarrassed.I wonder if I should find another school,someone started a thread a few days ago saying there should be schools especially for HFA but I bet if there is it would be a boarding school and I really don't want to go down that route ,he'd hate it,he loves home.