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AUTISM ON RICHARD & JUDY NOW

18 replies

DelGirl · 24/09/2004 17:19

Just happened to notice that there is going to be an article on this now.

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tiptop · 24/09/2004 17:26

DelGirl - I was just going to post the same thing! Snap!

Chocol8 · 24/09/2004 17:36

This is the same guy that was on BBC1 news this morning. My sister managed to catch it on video for me, but caught most of it. He said he used to be autistic but is no longer. His parents did a therapy program when he was younger called Son-Rise.

On R&J they showed the results of the program with a little girl and it certainly seems to have made a difference to her behaviour. The therapists are apparently coming over to GB from USA in January 05.

What did anyone else make of it?

tamum · 24/09/2004 17:36

Just watched- be interested to know what parents of children with autism thought. That bloke was amazing, it was impossible to tell that he wasn't NT. It all sounded too good to be true, the idea that the therapy had made a huge difference to a 16 year old, but I'd love to think it is true. I missed the start so I didn't hear what the therapy was- bet it's controversial though ;)

DelGirl · 24/09/2004 17:37

Well, I watched the item as did tiptop probably. There is a therapy available and what they were saying was that the threrapy involves interacting with the child at their level, mimick actions etc and engage the child to such a degree that you can then slowly pull them out of it. I'm not explaining it very well at all but it did seem to make sense. The couple who were featured said that it took 3/4 months, 7 or 8 hours a day to achieve results but their dd is now set to go into mainstream school. They were told she'd never achieve this.

Anyway, the course comes from America and they are running one in January. There is funding for 300 families who qualify.

You can find out more on Autism Treatment dot com or Channel 4 dot com / Richard & Judy

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onlyjoking9329 · 24/09/2004 18:07

i saw it this morning and to be honest i thought it was a bit unbelievable i dont believe that the guy had autism and it just seemed like marketing to parents who are looking for a cure.
but thats just my view of course.

Hulababy · 24/09/2004 18:11

I saw this on BBC news this morning too. I think it has been mentioned on MN before too???

Turquoise · 24/09/2004 18:14

I don't know about this particular guy Onlyjoking as I didn't see R&J but I have seen a programme or article on this therapy in the past and it does seem to help autistic children a remarkable amount. If it's the same one I'm thinking of, where the entire family "live" the therapy together, for several weeks/months?

coppertop · 24/09/2004 18:37

I didn't see the programme but I'm a little sceptical of anything that claims to 'cure' autism. The info I've seen about Son-Rise suggests to me that it may help some autistic children but it won't help all of them and certainly isn't a cure.

tamum · 24/09/2004 18:44

To be fair, they did say it would only help a proportion of children with autism (or Judy said so, at least ), and the guy himself said that using the word "cure" was politically sensitive (I guess lots of adults with autism don't like the idea of part of their personality being "cured", but I may have got that round my neck)

coppertop · 24/09/2004 18:45

Good old Judy, eh?

tamum · 24/09/2004 18:46

World expert I believe

Jimjams · 24/09/2004 20:21

Doesn't work very well with children who can't imitate - which ds1 can't. Even real son-rise crazies say that.

ABA has better data collected on it. I do think that 30 odd hours a week of 1:1 interaction with a child will make some difference whatever you do, but personally I think ABA is better for ds1. having said that am looking into whether I can do a growing minds course next year (davros- supervisor finding problems- so may go for that instead) and they use ABA and son-rise/floortime techniques. I suspect for ds1 they would employ more ABA though.

Davros · 27/09/2004 13:06

In my opinion, Son Rise and the Options Institute is a big culty, have you seen their website? Scary! They also REFUSE to publish any outcome data other than parading Raun as their one and only proven success. I'm sure it does help to a certain degree, especially as it is 1:1 and intensive but I disagree with copying stims etc with a young child, before they have learnt anything much. I do it now sometimes with DS, to kind of take away the excitement for him of doing it and to show him how silly it can look (that's my theory!) but if I had done this when he was very young I think he would mostly have just ignored it or maybe got confused. Instead we chose to TEACH him. Anyway, I asked a parent on another list I belong to if I could post his experience here (have taken any names etc out). BTW, you can probably tell the other list is an ABA list, hence the comparison to ABA in particular but what he says is interesting anyway:

"Son-Rise, Big White Teeth, Rah, Rah & give us all your money - LONG!

OK, you've guessed from the title that this isn't going to be a 100%
endorsement of Son Rise.

Before finding ABA we did Son-Rise for about 5 months, albeit somewhat
half-heartedly. Once we changed to ABA our son learned loads more in five weeks
than the five months we spent on Son-Rise.

We attended the Son-Rise Startup Programme in January 1998, one week course,
GBP600.00 PER PERSON!!!! (This is 6.5 years ago so no idea what it costs now).
About 300-350 people on the course. Taking into account even Concorde air fares
for the 6-8 of them that came over that still leaves a pretty tidy profit
(circa 150K???) for one weeks work by my maths.

Most of the mornings were "talks" by Barry Neil Kaufman aimed at cementing his
hold on the audience by using psychological break down and rebuild techniques.
Lots of writing letters to our children, putting their pictures on the walls,
weeping, etc, etc. Basically (in my humble opinion) taking advantage of very
vulnerable people whose children had been recently diagnosed by creating a
controlled mass hysteria session. I've never joined a cult and I am not
suggesting that Option is a cult, but it struck me that it would resemble the
techniques used by any successful cult leader to gain control over his
audience. Barry, or Bear as he likes to be called (believe it!!) , also spent a
reasonable amount of time slagging off Lovaas. He'd pick various one-sentence
extracts from Lovaas' Me Book (especially the physical aversive stuff) to show
what an evil man Lovaas is! When one or two ABA literate individuals said that
they felt he was being disingenuous given that the book was written over 30
years ago when society regarded physical aversives as a integral part of
schooling, he put them down hard, in front of the whole audience. He had the
mike, they didn't, and he used it to his full advantage. I'd like to say he
left me cold but he didn't; he left me infuriated that I'd spent so much money
on what for me was a hard sell sales pitch for further programmes and I was
paying handsomely to listen to it! Basically the mornings were a waste of time
and money; I wished I'd stayed in bed!

The afternoons were a little more useful. Video examples of how their technique
can be applied, etc. Nina Kaufman (yes it's a family business!) was quite
interesting and informative. Came away with some good ideas but still a lot of
"rah, rah and give us all your money". GBP600 per day didn't include lunch of
course so we ended up eating locally. In the hallway approach to the auditorium
their were posters up explaining how we could give them some more money to help
the poor people who couldn't afford to come on the course!

We were offered "small group consultations" about specific subjects. These
"small groups" turned out to be 20 or 30 or so people at a time! I seem to
remember they cost around GBP 25-50 each and lasted about 60-90 minutes. Again,
work out the maths guys!

What is Son-Rise? Someone once described it as "the herbal tea and crystals"
approach to intervention with autistic children. I'd have to agree but adding
"very expensive" in front! It essentially comprises intensive 1:1 therapy with
the child (not a bad thing) along with psychological help for the parents to
improve their power of positive thinking (again not a bad thing). The
intervention itself however is essentially child led play therapy. The basic
premise of totally child led therapy for autistic kids doesn't work in my view
through bitter experience. I spent several months following our son around,
copying the circuits hid did then which achieved very little other than leaving
me feeling like a jerk! I was supposed to join him in what he wanted to do
rather than show him what I wanted. I'm not convinced he even knew I was in the
same room as him! I'm sure child-led therapy works exceptionally well for
children who have learning difficulties but still have the natural desire to
interact with others. Autistic kids mostly don't have this desire, they have a
"can't learn, won't learn" attitude and are far happier in their own little
world. My son is now a happy go lucky 10 year old, just started middle school
and to the casual observer is no different from any of the rest of the kids.
But it's ABA that got him there, not Son-Rise.

To summarise?

  1. Son-Rise is worth a read. By all means buy (or preferably borrow) the books
    and have a read. Nothing in this world is black and white and I am sure you
    will get something out of it. For all my complaining, I did get something out
    of Son-Rise, but mostly from the books not the incredibly expensive start up
    course.

  2. Child-led play therapy has something to offer kids with autism as a
    complement to ABA but it definitely does not replace ABA by any means
    whatsoever.

  3. You can learn about child-led play therapy a hell of a lot cheaper and
    probably more effectively than going on the Son-Rise programme. Read books on
    the Hannan Method for a start.

  4. Given that The Option Institute is "non-profit making", where does all the
    money go?

All of the above is my own humble opinion, being an enthusiastic amateur, by no
means a professional. That said, it is an honest account of my personal
experiences. Others may have had a much more positive experience of Son-Rise."

DelGirl · 27/09/2004 21:43

I haven't read all the post Davros and I don't know of anyone who is autistic so I wouldn't comment anymore than I have done already. I just thought I would mention again though that the course they're running in January has funded places for 300 families who qualify. Obviously I don't know that much about it, just thought it may be of interest to some if it's a therapy they're not aware of

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Davros · 27/09/2004 22:10

Delgirl, sorry did I sound like I was cross that you'd posted it? Of course not, great that people post info here.

DelGirl · 27/09/2004 22:11

no you didn't at all Davros just thought it was worth mentioning again thats all

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Jimjams · 27/09/2004 22:14

I got the impression from Growing Minds that in order to teach the children anything they had to use ABA. But then the girl I saw on Richard and Judy seemed to be doing quite structured stuff anyway (I think she's moved onto the next stage or something). It looked to structured and instructive to be son-rise to me! But then what do I know. I was given the book- but have yet to read it.

Davros · 27/09/2004 22:29

There was a BBC prog years ago on Son Rise and they certainly use behavioural methods, they'd just die rather than call them that! Growing Minds sounds great and my friend who has used them seems to be happy (although his son is now 10).

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