'He is saying no to all adults'

[Isitmybathtimeyet]

DS is five, in year 1. I won't give you the full history but he's always refused to 'compromise' as his Reception teacher put it. He won't join in if he doesn't want to, or do anything else he doesn't want to either. He is never violent but will sit with his back to the class and ignore everyone for example.

He is a very sweet and affectionate little boy but as he progresses through school he is struggling more and more with structure. He gets 'silly', refuses transitions, and will just run away. He has big sensory issues.

His Reception and Year 1 teachers have been exceptional in working with him to find ways of supporting him. Since Year 1 exposed how impossible he found it to follow a less free programme, the SENCO has put through OT and SALT referrals, and he has been assessed twice in school by the social communication and autism support service, who recommended visual timetables, reward charts etc.

And now he is just refusing to do anything in school, since last week. He is cheerful at home, at after school club and with his childminder. He is pretty cheerful at school and keen to go in the morning. But he is saying no to all adults and tomorrow I am going in to talk about it. Although we have had some really difficult moments with him, at the moment he is fairly OK at home.

Has anyone had this and did anything help? When he says no at home we either change plans if it makes sense to do so, ignore him and plough on with the activity if that works best (he's one of four kids) or force the issue (e.g. getting dressed, which he won't do and often has to be done against severe protest). None of those are the key to getting him to do anything at school, and they don't thrill us either.

Sorry this is so long.

PDA strategies may work, e.g. instead of saying get dressed, give him a choice, (make both parts of the choice something you want him to do) "Which are you putting on first, shoes or coat?"

www.pdasociety.org.uk/families/strategies

Pass the link to school to see if they can use that type of terminology too.

Thanks, BlankTimes. We've already tried the choice thing, at school and home, and he just refuses both if he's entrenched. The autism team suggested it and the teacher and I had both failed with it. I will look at the strategies though, thanks.

I don't have any advice unfortunately but have a similar sounding ds (who's 6 and in Year 1), as yet undiagnosed but hopefully getting on the pathway. Things escalated last week as well with him refusing to do anything. It isn't consistent though. He is also having toileting issues (this has always been a problem but the current level of avoidance is impressive!) with lots of accidents. Do you think there could be anything curriculum wise that could have been introduced? It's interesting that the timing is the same although I am told nothing has changed. I think ds may be having playtime issues too. Choices don't generally work for us either btw.

Yes we've been there.
DS pretty much did no learning in year 1 - his teacher couldn't cope with him at all and he spent nearly all his time drawing in the cushion area, running around or in the head's office.

It took a long time to untangle and get the right support. He's now in year 5 in SS and doing really well.

PDA strategies do work, but certainly for DS it also goes hand in hand with the personality of the person who is the teacher / TA. Some he would never do stuff for, even with PDA strategies. Others had him eating out of his hand.

Anxiety - over work.
Hating and pain over handwriting.
Not a great working memory / concentration so not really know what he was supposed to be doing.
A refusal to work on anything he found boring or slightly difficult.
Significant sensory issues which means he needs 'regulating' throughout the day (which I think the free play element in Foundation used to fulfil).

It took a private OT, SLT and EP to untangle all the above.
The autism team were probably the least helpful because they just suggested generic strategies that didn't really work with DS (altho now he has things like visual timetables as part of a whole school ethos and they do work well because they are integrated as part of the whole school)

They also use Makaton which whilst DS is highly verbal, helps him a lot as a shorthand for what he's supposed to be doing.

So I think what I'm saying is there's probably a lot of factors at play, you will have to probably untangle it all bit by bit.

The right support and understanding goes a very long way.

Lots of good advice already.

Is it the transitions from one task to another that's he problem? My ds has huge difficulties with that. He's 5 and in reception. like marshmallow09er he has a bundle of different issues particularly lots of sensory difficulties.

Something that has worked brilliantly for us in the last few weeks is a to do...done board, which we use photo visuals on for him. I've put a picture of what the aim is at the top ie school and then a picture of each thing he needs to do to get there ie. shoes, hat, coat. Once he does the thing he moves the picture to the done side and we make a massive fuss over him. By the end I think he's so pleased with all the praise he's getting I think he forgets about the transition part.

I also find makaton very helpful. It just gives ds something visual to remember which seems to stick with him more that verbal instructions.

my mums friend once sat at the top of the stairs reading to ds who was "ignoring" her at the bottom of the stairs. he was adament that he was not going to listen but he was.

If it were me I would be making the lesson extra interesting to listen to, he may be taking things in. I would put eduational stuff down next to him and leave it and let him engage if he wants. (there are lots of educational jigsaws, plasticine and lego help finger strength, there are construction kits and maths resources to explore, lots of teaching can be achieved by commenting on what he has done with it, as long as he is not throwing it... or eating it.. or sticking it up his nose... )

If I were the teacher I would be keeping records of stuff he had done as well, as an attempt to not get my arse handed to me on a plate... (eg talked about size, colour, order, which can be things like, I really like your tall red tower... wow it is taller than ... )

sometimes you have to do softly softly catchy monkey...

Thanks so much for the advice and shared experience. Transitions are an issue at times but we both think it's demands more than anything. I have friends with teenagers with PDA diagnosed at a very late stage so I'm anxious not to let this get to the point where it's making his life miserable. (Not that he definitely has PDA at all but I want to watch it closely.)

His teacher is fantastic and he loves her but still says no. He's more or less OK with 1:1 attention but that means the TA is entirely taken up with him on those occasions and she only works mornings, so the poor teacher needs to get through the rest of the time when she's alone.

I think I'm definitely going to explore getting him some play therapy around his anxieties privately. And will think about other suggestions on here. I can see a done board being a good distraction from the transition for one thing.

Sorry, had to post to check what Birthdayhat had asked! We're not in the UK so our curriculum is a bit different (not much) but I think it's been the year 1 move to more structure in the classroom that has caused this. He had problems in Reception but it was more manageable as so often the demand could be avoided to get on with things, whereas now there are learning times for everyone. But it then extends wider, so he'll refuse to go out to play even though he wants to...

At 5, I turned most things into a game. Rather than time to pack stuff away now.....let’s see who can put away the most etc often met with a ‘no’, which I ignored and started to put stuff away, look I’m putting more things back than you etc.

or coming to sit down....let’s race to the chair. Getting dressed....I will count, I wonder how long it will take to put your top on.

I wonder if you could do x, y, z, hmm show me how to do it etc. Or I need some help with this, do you know how to do it etc.

Asking questions which avoid yes or no answer. For example do you want to sit in this chair or that chair.

That kinda thing.

Thanks. We do a LOT of counting, which works if things are relatively calm. Offering choices just doesn't work - in the chair scenario he would just say 'no chair' or ' the chair at home' etc. Games work some of the time - but he knows he's being played, he just goes along with it when he's willing.

Basically all our techniques only work on his terms!

I think there is also an element of picking your battles! For example getting to a hospital appointment, when getting dressed games etc were not working, ok go in your pj’s, put a coat over the top!

Couldn’t go to school in your pj’s! Visual sequence chart, so can do it independently (without any demands) not working. Games or choice of top or trousers first, not working. Ok il choose for you, let’s put your top on!

It’s so difficult trying to balance, lowering demands, or avoiding demands on the unimportant stuff, trying to remember to word it correctly so it doesn’t sound like a demand and insisting on important stuff that really needs to be done!

Have you tried visual sequencing charts? So no demands or instructions are needed?
Getting dressed for example literally a visual of the order to get dressed in etc

Sorry for the delay in replying.

We do have visual sequencing things - different items of clothing etc. He mostly ignores them. He's keen to ask what will happen next but doesn't seem to find the visual things particularly motivating. And we very much pick our battles (although of course I then worry that we're rewarding 'bad' behaviour...).

He's overall had the worst week of his school career this week. He'll be assessed on Monday and the school is going to push for an ed psych referral but obviously it's a long way off.

My dd gets really anxious when presented with choices. Also questions have the same effect she'll just refuse to engage at all or gets a bit "flappy". I use direct commands eg it's time to put your coat on. That way it's "times" fault and she can't get upset with time.