Do these traits sound like ASD??

[Catslater29]

Hi,

I posted for advice in one of the other boards but I think my concerns would be better answered here.

DD is 4, 5 at the end of Feb. I deferred her school entry until next year (in scotland we have the choice if your child is born between 1st jan and 28th Feb) I felt she would do better in school if she was the oldest...not other real concerns when I made the decision.

So recently her nursery teacher mentioned during her parent/teacher meeting that she struggled sharing, sometimes said things that upset other children (example was I’m not holding your hand because you smell) struggles taking turns and gets upset when she’s asked to do something she doesn’t want to do. I was then asked If I wanted a catch up with the school teacher that spends time with the pre school kids twice a week so I did. I went along to a meeting and the head of nursery also sat in. She actually took control of the meeting and started off with some nice things but then it all took a different turn. She kept focusing on dd’s accent. Asking if anyone in our family was American, dd does have an accent, I wouldn’t say American but she is a fan of YouTube and it’s not just an accent, She uses words like trash instead of rubbish. Rest room instead of toilet etc. Which makes me sure she is getting this from youtube.

Cutting a long story short, they offered to refer her to the educational psychologist so I agreed. We are waiting to be seen. I asked if they thought that she was autistic but they didn’t comment and said they couldn’t diagnose and they just wanted dd to have the best nursery experience possible.

I want to know if her traits / behaviours sound like bad behaviour? Or just normal behaviour? How can I tell if she is somewhere on the spectrum? I'm so lost with it all. I need to talk to someone who knows more than I do.

Here is what I observe - she has a wide range of vocabulary and speaks with an accent. She is loving, and shows empathy, she ignores us sometimes when we talk to her, she talks non stop and will talk to anyone and everyone. She lacks a sense of danger and has managed to escape from the house/wanders away in shops etc. She doesn’t like to lose at party games and cries if she doesn’t win. She struggles sharing sometimes but can be coaxed to share. She’s not fixated on structure and plays with toys normally. (When I say normally. She has 3 older siblings and plays the same way as they did at her age) she sleeps well, has a good sense of humour.

She’s obviously behaving differently in nursery for them to be taking things this to an educational psychologist but I’m also wary and feel a bit like they are just looking for issues that aren’t there. They asked for a quick chat the other day and came out with the notepad again and started off with saying have I ever noticed dd has a very sensitive sense of smell. I can honestly say I have never noticed her complain about smells. Obviously if there is a smell she would comment ewwww what’s that stinky smell but no differently to anyone else. Apparently in nursery she was complaining about a smell when no one else was. I found this really strange and has made me doubt the other claims.

Sorry for the really long post. I just don’t know who to ask for advice.

You do mention some traits my autistic son has/had. He developed a cornish accent from watching Bottle Top Bill and His Best friend Corky! The wide vocabulary thing was a shock to me too. I thought that could only be good - didn't realise about echolalia. Even now (aged 10) he is big on monologue. My mum had to get a side gate as he kept legging it round the front from the back garden when he was little. Party game type parties always a disaster. He would be all keen until he didn't win the first game then we generally spent the rest of the party loitering outside. With hindsight can't believe I was do dense - we should've just not gone to most of them.

Thanks shybutnotretiring. She is always really excited for parties too, generally she does take part. She’ll cry when she doesn’t win but bounces back quickly. And then sometimes she doesn’t care whether she wins or not so it’s no consistent and although I feel she should be able to handle not winning a bit better she just has a cry then moves on. She doesn’t start having tantrums or meltdowns.

With regards to the accent. I didn’t realise that autistic children copy accents. I am so clueless when it comes to understanding symptoms. It’s so complex.

Sounds similar to my 4.5 yrs DD except she has a sense of danger, she’s quite cautious.
Pre school told me she was disobedient and was likely to be sent out of class at school. Very competitive, an awful loser (or non winner). This has presented itself a lot over Xmas when tired. She screamed a lot at pre school when kids took something she wanted. Came home from holiday speaking with a Midlands accent for weeks after a girl on holiday had one.

But... she’s now doing brilliantly at school... teachers love her, she gets on with everyone, listens brilliantly, does everything she’s told, the teacher recommended she actually needs to push to get her turn more as she doesn’t really stand up for herself. I coached her into not screaming / crying so much at school (i read it’s socially unacceptable at this age and it has improved her social skills to be fair)

She’s not autistic as far as I’m aware but I’m not very clued up.. I guess it depends how extreme all the behaviours are and how much they affect things

Just as an afterthought, were they on board with holding her back from school? Why was the school teacher involved? Do you think concerns have been raised due to the fact you’ve held her back?

Also, you may want to research Highly Sensitive children. I am somewhat like this with smells myself and it’s not the same as SPD..
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/creative-development/201107/sensory-processing-disorder%3famp

Thanks so much for responding, and it’s good to hear that your daughter is doing well at school. I have literally been monitoring every single thing she’s been doing over the holidays and I can honestly say she has been so well behaved I see absolutely no traits of autism. We’ve been playing family games and sometimes she’s bothered about losing but other times she just doesn’t care. Her behaviour in nursery is not extreme and I don’t know if I already said but they literally have one or two examples of her saying and doing things. The more I’ve been reading the more I feel the nursery really are blowing her behaviour out of proportion. Either that or she is a completely different child in nursery but I would expect more examples of traits she’s displaying if this is the case.

The nursery were onboard with the school deferrel, lots of kids do it so it really we no big deal. There was literally a day in it between her being able to go to school and starting the following year. The school teacher spends time in the nursery with kids that need a bit more support in smaller learning groups. Ie helping them learn to share, manners, social skills, separation anxiety, self confidence etc. It’s a great thing and my daughter loves the teacher and the time she spends in her group time. She doesn’t get focused time like that otherwise. He behaviour in this group is also excellent which makes me think she’s bored in the wider open nursery. She’s very smart and wants to read/write but this is not something the nursery supports but that’s a whole different issue. :-)

She doesn’t have any issues with smells and again when the nursery brought this up, they said it happened once. I feel they are making an example somehow and feel they have taken it too far but are trying to gather evidence for the educational phycologist to kind of back up their referral if that makes sense.

Just let them have her assessed, you can't be objective as your her mum and if there is nothing going on any concerns from the nursery will be quickly dismissed.

I may split my sons time with another setting if he starts playing up at pre school at that age. He will have been there 3 years by then and I think he will get bored as it’s quite samey.

If she’s keen to read and write and the school is a good one she will learn as soon as she starts. I don’t think nursery are allowed to teach them unless they are qualified teacher status? Good luck with the referral x

I know you are in Scotland, and my experience is in England, but I suspect anywhere publicly funded will be in the same position. It is incredibly difficult to get Ed Psych time. Depending how it works in your Nursery, they will either have a very limited number of hours over a year to share between all the dc, or they will have a system of having to meet criteria to be able to refer to an EP. Either way, if the Nursery are referring to the EP, it suggests they do have quite big concerns over her development.
They are right, they can't diagnose. Indeed, nor can an EP. A diagnosis has to come from a medically qualified person. Be aware that girls present very, very differently from boys on the whole. Whether she is or isn't autistic, they are concerned enough about her development and how she presents at school, to refer to a pretty precious resource. If the EP has no concerns, then nothing further will happen.

I will definitely be going ahead with the referral and I do agree it is a precious resource, friends who work in education have told me they have had to jump through hoops to have an assessment so yes I’m torn with how I feel. One part of me thinks it’s a waste of time and on the flip I’m so worried about it all. I have also been told about girls masking their behaviour so I guess I just need to wait and see. I feel I am being objective but I guess I could be in denial. It’s hard to know. I want to support her in any way I can.

Backforgood, you say they can’t diagnose, what does an EP do? Would they just observe her in nursery and decide if further observations/testing was needed?

MrsMaker, I did wonder if moving her would be beneficial, I suggested this to the head of the nursery and she didn’t agree. Will wait and see how things turn out. I have a meeting at the nursery in a couple of weeks so I will prepare my questions for them. Thanks xx

Well, at pre-school age in my authority, you can only refer in to an EP to do the assessments and write the reports to request an EHCP. In surrounding authrorities, EPs don't even get involved pre-school. Back in the days before stripping Local Authorities of all funding austerity, EPs used to be able to observe dc and then offer advice and suggestions to help staff - suggestion things to write as targets for them, suggesting techniques or programmes staff might follow to help the dc access education.

Either that or she is a completely different child in nursery

This could actually be true. We used to go to parents 'evenings and it seemed that the school staff were talking about a completely different child from the one we had at home.

In his early years our son couldn't cope with losing, said inappropriate things and at one point had a whole raft of Americanisms in his vocabulary, acquired from You tube and the like. That said there were a whole load of other issues that screamed autism - no social skills, no empathy, sensory issues, poor language and communication, obsessions etc.

But it is more recognised now that girls with autism present differently from boys, and mask a lot of the time. I know a girl who was not diagnosed with autism until she was 15, and then only after having a complete nervous breakdown, with the result she was in and out of education for 4 years.

I know it is worrying, but if there are issues, it is better that they are picked up early, then support can be put in place sooner rather than later.

I don't really know what to expect. Will just need to wait and see. Thanks for your help and happy new year! X

Thanks ellie56. She doesn't present any other issues that I am aware if. Has no communication issues, shows empathy, affection, no obsessions, plays normally and well with other children (based on my observations) so I would be so surprised if she was acting so differently away from home but I guess I cant know for sure. That's what's so frustrating! I wish I could secretly film her in nursery!

Hi there,

That point about presenting so different at nursery to home I had to comment on!

That was defo the case for us that at first when nursery flagged concerns and I thought they were making a bigger issue of my sons difficulties. When I would say ‘but he plays with friends kids at home, he doesn’t do bla bla at home’ I felt they thought I was in complete denial!

I do feel in a nursery setting and perhaps at nursery age in general differences begin to show more perhaps. Nurseries are noisy, colourful and busy places so different to our cosy quiet homes!

No one is going to be able to tell you if your child has ASD or not, but if my nursery told me now with my second son that they wanted to get an EP involved I
Would take them seriously. Funding is so tight for schools, I don’t think they would refer except for if they thought there was something that needed more investigation. It could be something and it might not be.

Good luck with it all, it’s a very stressful time!

Thanks sel82, do you mind me asking what behaviours your son displayed in nursery? What age is he now. I totally relate to them thinking I am in denial..... I had a look at the report the nursery gave me again and they seem to focus on emotions and how emotional she gets when asked to do something she doesn’t want to do. In particular she has a problem at tidy up time. Yes it is so stressful, although so much less stressful being away from nursery :-)

Hi , he’s almost 8 now! He’s come an incredibly long way and I never would have guessed at that time that he would be the boy he is today. He’s doing very well at school has lots of friends and we are always invited to parties etc. I took him to a private OT for some fine motor skills sessions and the the therapist was almost doubtful that he had ASD. When I mentioned that back to the paediatrician in our annual review she said that he had made such huge progress.

Nursery age was quite depressing tbh, he had a speech delay, didn’t really like other children joining in with his play, I remember his social emotional development fell in the 16-26 months development range when he was 3 years old. He has honestly come such a long way when I felt the nursery days were so dreary and used to love the holidays too! Yeh and actually I remember that point u mentioned about doing things on his terms only and if interested him.

That’s so good to hear, I’m really glad your son is doing well now.

It’s also interesting to hear how children are being diagnosed with autism and then later being told it’s doubtful this was the correct diagnosis. I’ve read this on a few threads but also is early intervention helping?

I see improvements every day with my dd so I am still doubtful there are any real serious behaviour issues that she won’t grow out of. She may need some help with sharing and support in social situations so I’m all for some coping mechanisms or techniques that will help. I will wait for the referral.

Hi @Catslater29 I know this is an old post but just wondering if you're still here do you have an update on your little one? Going through something similar at the moment with the different accent and a few other traits.
Many thanks

Hi @Concernedmum16

Wow this was interesting reading this post. I completely forgot about posting it. Was like a trip down memory lane.

i’ll try and summarise the last 5 and a 1/2 years. DD is 9 now, she is doing well in school and is above average for maths and well above average for her literacy skills. She is still extremely emotional and still talks with an accent. She claims not to be able to hear that she is talking differently to everyone else. It’s not as strong as it used to be but it’s still there. Last year she was discharged from the educational physiologist however they have had a role to play in her success and happiness in school.

when she is somewhere where there is lots going on she can struggle and gets upset and asks to leave. She has a few close friends and is able to play with them without any problems however, playing in groups of girls really stresses her out and and she can get aggressive and screams at people. This is happening less and less as she gets older and is better able to control her emotions.

Out of the blue about 6 months ago DD asked me if she was autistic, they were learning about autism in school and she recognised certain traits in herself. I decided I owed it to her to seek some kind of diagnosis. I spoke at length with her consultant (she suffers from migraines so sees a consultant at the hospital every few months) and he agreed to refer her. We are a long way off from a diagnosis but it sounds like all those years ago the nursery recognised something in her behaviour that was not neurotypical. Her school are supportive of this.

happy to answer any other questions you have 😊

Oh wow @Catslater29 it actually gave me goosebumps that she asked you was she autistic, I think that's amazing and she sounds amazing! So in tune with herself. Actually made me emotional as I can possibly see that down the line for us!
My DD is 4 and her preschool flagged up her 'strange accent and sometimes intonation'. I always knew she spoke in a different accent to us, she speaks quite proper, nearly an English accent and we live in N.Ireland. They also said she struggled with making friends but was making progress slowly.
She is extremely smart, mature for her age and articulate.
I'm so torn as the accent and friendships are the 2 red flags at the moments, no other traits but those are enough to worry me.
Can I just say I also think you are fab, the way you said you felt you owed it to your daughter to seek a diagnosis is the kind of loving and supportive mum i want to be ❤

Aw thanks @Concernedmum16 that’s so nice of you to say, I just feel like getting a diagnosis could help her accept herself further down the line and why she feels the way she does. She is very in tune with herself and is able to say I don’t feel very good, or I feel really sad (I suspect she suffers with depression) but she can recognise these feelings and expresses them, she often ask for some quiet time in her room or in a quiet area of her classroom.

I really try to understand her and be accepting of her ways, she can be very difficult and awkward and it’s so hard to understand how her mind works sometimes but we’re getting there and you will too.

What issues does your dd have with friendships? My dd preferred to play with the boys, she didn’t like the baby doll Roleplay, she loved and still loves Lego or and any kind of small playhouse type toys with tiny figures.

Nursery said she was always on the cusp of friendship groups, that the group she wanted to play with were very strong little characters and she just wasn't confident enough to join, that she then realised there were others to play with and was starting to form little friendships in the final term before summer.
She always tells me she's playing with this person and that person but I don't know whether it's true.
I have however watched her play happily with her cousin and play with other girls she doesn't know at the park.
She absolutely loves playing with tiny figures, dolls, dolls houses, teddies etc is so creative and can make up great stories, loves to paint, colour, play with playdoh, kinetic sand etc make 'potions' with coloured water!
She's just started school so I guess time will tell, I am just so confused over it all. I genuinely had no concerns, despite knowing she has a slightly strange accent, until nursery mentioned it the week before she finished. Quite annoyed that if they thought she was struggling with friends before that they didn't mention it and waited til the summer and left me stressing!