How to handle aggressive behaviour/am I missing something?

[FrayedHem]

DS3 is 5. He was dx with ASD a shade over 4. DS1 (12) has ASD.

He used to have really prolonged meltdowns as a toddler. This really was what made me start referrals. He would rampage through the house going absolutely wild. It tailed off quite significantly when his speech and language improved.

But for the last few months he has become very physically aggressive. The cause is usually when he does something accidentally - e.g. say he accidentally hurt someone and they say "ow" He will go off and start lashing out. Transitions are another flash point. There are also occasions when it's happening for reasons I can't fathom at all.

Ignoring him makes he all the more determined to up the ante. DS4 is his usual target but anyone will do. He hits, kicks, pulls hair and spits. He has intentionally urinated on the carpet. Will try and destroy any kind of phone or tablet. This list goes on really. And it's becoming so much more frequent (at least twice a day if not more) and goes on for a good half an hour at a time. He's also quite verbal with it, shouting out insults and such.

The other day he kicked DS1 very hard between the legs (DS1 was just walking past him there'd been no interaction). DS1 immediately retaliated. DS1 is huge for 12, much taller than me and pretty strong. He got DS3 on the floor and slapped him. DS3 didn't so much as flinch. I got them separated but DS3 was desperate to keep fighting with DS1 as he says he really likes it.

When he calms, he will rush around trying to fix things and offer everyone drinks.

I am just at a loss tbh. He's golden at school, and he lives for rewards there. But any attempt to try rewards at home back-fires as he will just set out to sabotage himself. We don't have the space to have a DS3 only area. DS1 and 2 have their own rooms and DS2 is spending increasing amounts of time in his because DS3 frequently goes for him.

I'm thinking about going back to the GP and asking for a referral back to the paediatrician. Not entirely sure what I expect them to suggest though.

So sorry to hear you’re dealing with this. Look into NVR. There’s a woman called Sarah Fisher who runs online and in person courses. Plus a private Facebook support group. Good luck

Thanks. I've googled and ordered a book to see if there's any hints in there how to approach this.

Frayed

He sounds similar to my DS, who is autistic but with a PDA profile.
I know no different but I do know my DS does seem different to other autistic children that were at his school (altho clearly every child is different, autistic or not).
There is debate about whether PDA really does exist in its own right as a profile of autism, but for me it does fit DS absolutely - especially the whole 'focusing' on certain people and antagonising them, often unprovoked.

It sounds like DS3 is different from your DS1 and different strategies are needed?

Being ignored is one of DS's biggest triggers (or just feeling like he's being ignored). Or that he's being blamed for something (like accidentally hurting someone).

My DS loves fighting - I think it's the sensory feedback. He likes the feeling of other person fighting back / trying to escape etc. I've yet to find anything synthetic that gives him the same sort of feedback.

I've often said on here keeping him in a 'just right' state is a 24/7 delicate seesaw - if the balance tips just slightly one way or the other then it can be tricky. He's such a lovely boy tho, when he's calm and happy.
Unfortunately his need for control / sensory stuff makes living with my DD tricky for him and I spend my life referring / watching like a professional poker playing for when I need to intervene.

I got them separated but DS3 was desperate to keep fighting with DS1 as he says he really likes it

I don't know why but this stood out to me. Is he a sensory seeker? My 4 year old is, and can be aggressive, but not when he loses his temper, but he play fights or does it in a playful way, but then takes it way, way, way too far. And doesn't seem to realise. And then when the other child retaliates by being rough back he likes it!

He regularly asks my 11 yo to "squash him" and my 11 yo puts the beanbag on top of him and sits on it, and he loves it.

I just wondered if he's seeking sensory feedback, pain almost (?) when upset, and whether he could get the same sensation another way that's more positive than lashing out at others and wanting them to fight back?

Being ignored is one of DS's biggest triggers (or just feeling like he's being ignored). Or that he's being blamed for something (like accidentally hurting someone).

I've often said on here keeping him in a 'just right' state is a 24/7 delicate seesaw - if the balance tips just slightly one way or the other then it can be tricky. He's such a lovely boy tho, when he's calm and happy.

Marshmallow DS3 is exactly this. In fact I nodded my way through your post. He can be the sweetest and kindest child. Anyone hurts themselves in the house and he's there trying to make it better. He is so generous, always shares. His nursery do a little leaver's thing where each child got an award for being The Most... DS3's was Most Charming!

But when he goes off on one, if I ignore him he will got to extremes. Will jump up and rip my hair out. When he went off on one on holiday, he met my eye then went and slapped DS4 who was just dozing off on the sofa. I couldn't get there in time but I could see exactly what he was going to do. He has even kicked MIL who he adores. There's no choice but to hold him but he's incredibly strong. He spits because there's no way to stop that. The time he pissed on the carpet was when DH told he if he spat once more we wouldn't go somewhere (can't remember where now).

Around DS3's age DS1 was a sensory seeker, but not to the extreme DS3 is. I think what you say about the struggle/escape is really what DS3 gets invested in. It's no longer about whatever injustice he thinks happened, he gets wrapped up in the fighting. They are chalk and cheese on other sensory stuff like noise and eating with DS1 being over-sensitive on those and DS3 spending a lot of time singing and dancing and generally twirling around like a whirlwind.

DS1's difficulties really present in the school environment so he has EHCP is in an ASD base. DS3 is unsupported at school beyond them knowing he has ASD. He's keen to please and respond to their rewards so he's ticking along o.k. DS1 is low maintenance at home, he isn't keen on going out but so far accepts he can't stay in all the time. DS3 on the other hand likes to have a full diary of stuff planned.

Prinkley DS3 is definitely a sensory seeker and will clunk himself about, likes bear hugs etc. My oldest with ASD was similar to yours at that age. He'd get over-excited by rough and tumble. DS3's "thing" is purposefully trying to start a fight, usually when he feels hard done by for some reason that isn't always clear. He also says some awful things whilst he does this. He told me I was a loser because I'm "41 and don't even have a job"(!) When he's tipped into the fighting zone there is nothing I've found so far that will calm him.

He told me I was a loser because I'm "41 and don't even have a job"(!)
Well that's pretty astute for a 5 year old, he sounds bright (trying to be positive).
He actually sounds more like my 11 year old. She has ASD, with PDA traits. She's never aggressive, but oh my word if she feels hard done by in some way, or if you try to discipline her, she is verbally VILE and can cry and scream for a good hour. Always really sorry afterwards, and now says thing's like "I hate myself"
She used to be charming when younger but has lost a lot of confidence since then is and is no more.

I don't really discipline her that much any more as she doesn't react well to it, and I pussy foot around her. I have no advice except to suggest is there any courses locally you could go on regarding challenging and aggressive behaviour?

I was shocked. I guess that's the point. But I think it also shows how controlled he is when he is seemingly out of control IYKWIM. I also feel the need to tell you I work part time but at home when he's either not here or asleep! Not that it should matter! DS3 struggles at school with reading etc tbh but he tries very hard. Although DS1 has always whizzed through reading and the like but has completely disengaged from school.

I'm going to see if I can get referred for something, but we live fairly rurally and I don't think the county as a whole really does much. When DS1 was dx we went on their ASD course which is basically a rip-off of Hanen's More than Words.

That sounds tough with your DD too. It's hard to know what to do for the best when everything you try just makes it worse. DS1 started to really struggle when he was 10 and Yr6 was a disaster. Self harm etc. Secondary has been better and he's happier but I sense he looks down on the rest of us a lot!

I know this is kind of peripheral to what you are discussing, but reading about the play fighting/sensory stuff made me wonder whether you'd tried a body sock (I know you said you hadn't found anything synthetic that substituted, but don't know if you'd seen these?)

I saw them on Purple Ella's video on her Sensory Aid Kit here (about 7 minutes in):

I used to love play fighting or being confined as a kid (getting into a small space and pushing against it), or having my sister pull my hair even. My autistic DD now also encourages DS 1.5 to pull her hair and will lie on the floor and shout "rugby tackle me!" and he toddles over and throws himself at her. Which I know is different but I wonder if it is serving a similar kind of sensory purpose?

The other thing to mention Frayed is that DS was also diagnosed with ADHD this year (he's 9 - he was diagnosed with ASD at 4).

I think it's just all intertwined really in that he has no impulse control, very little attention span unless he's really interested in something, so gets bored v easily and then winding up people is appealing because he gets the sensory feedback he craves.

He's starting special school in Sept for year 5. Academically he's fine, but he just needs a more nurturing environment, plus staff who understands the complicated little person he is, and who hopefully can keep him on the even keel he needs (DS is just as explosive at school as he is at home).

Lighttripper might give the bodysock a go!

Body sock is amazing, easy deep pressure that child can do alone!

I would start doing lots of deep pressure and proprioceptive activities. You really need to be proactive and incorporate it into daily life.

I don't like NVR as it feels quite oppressive to me as an autistic person so I wouldn't use it for an autistic child.

Bo Elven's books and YouTube clips are very good.

(As an aside - Polter! Nice to see you. I've missed your wise words on here)

lighttripper I love those body socks! I'm definitely ordering a couple.

Marshmallow When we were in the is he/isn't he phase, ADHD was something I felt was more likely than ASD.

The difference approach in DS1's school has been a real eye-opener for me. DS1 had an awful Yr6 where his teacher pretty much loathed him and begrudged the tiniest adjustment. DS1 is used an example of how to self-regulate in his ASD base! The temptation to tell storm up to his Yr6 teacher shouting "IN YOUR FACE" was huge as DS2 had him last year . DS1 Is back to doing maths which he basically didn't do for 2 years and goes into mainstream for those lessons now. I really hope your DS has a similar experience.

Unfortunately there is little SN provision for primary age children in our area. The primary school is dreadful but thus far he's ticking along o.k. I'm very aware it can change overnight and I do suspect he won't be able to bottle it up the higher up school he goes.

Polter
I meant to add deep pressure etc has been part of daily life way before diagnosis. The "fighting" I find hard to quite articulate what is going on. He is a very proud little chap and very much considers himself to be older than he is and able to take us all down! I think the sensory feedback is an additional plus for him, but not the route cause. I'll look up Bo Elvens too.

Is the fighting more wrestling or actual punching? (DS is a wrestler).

The winding / provoking people thing that DS does a lot - his SLT has suggested that because DS can't tell how anyone is feeling from their expression or tone of voice he subconsciously tries to get people to act emotionally (eg raise their voices) because then he knows where he is - in a world that's confusing and provokes anxiety, if he gets a reaction from people he feels more in control again.

The stuff he does is often so self sabotaging and afterwards he regrets it, but once he's got that manic gleaming look in his eye it's very hard to stop him. It's all about stopping him get to that point in the first place. Which is indeed all consuming (much easier when he's on his own - but the reality of our life is that he's rarely on his own).

He can also carry a grudge for a very long time. Like years. Once someone has slighted him / annoyed him in any way he struggles to move past that and can then really 'focus in' and target that particular person.

He is now about to tell me that he's 'focusing in' on someone though (that's what we call it), which is helpful

It's worth remembering that he's only 5, it took us years of doing all the stuff to get to point where, at 15, he's really quite self aware and has some good self-regulation skills. It's very much a marathon not a sprint, which I know doesn't help much now

Very fighty rather than wrestling. Pinching, punching, kicking, slapping. Aims kicks at groins for the other boys and DH. Goes for my hair. Occasional biting. Will throw objects at people or throw at the tv/stamp on things if we're out of his range.

I'd say DS3 is pretty good at expressing himself verbally. On holiday he was sharing a double bed with DS4. He came to me the next day and said DS4 had stolen his covers so he didn't want to share with him, he wanted to share with DH and I could share with DS4. This really impressed me as even with DS2 11 (NT?) I have to unravel what's bothering him as he'll rarely volunteer it.

He definitely holds a grudge

Agree prevention is always our focus. But I can't predict everything and its how to handle him when he's gone off. DS4 is v petite for his age (nearly 4) and I worry he'll end up seriously hurt.

And Polter is right - he is only 5 (I said that on someone else's post over on Chat yesterday too). My DS is older so possibly I expect more (but still probably too much as emotional he's on a par with a 5/6 year old really)

For me I think it's just more intense during the holidays as there's no break (for me, or for my children from each other).

Polter that's why it's always nice to hear from you - you have walked this road before and it's good to hear a perspective from a bit further on down (same with you Frayed and your DS1).

Frayedhem I made no judgement about your employment status It's just the sort of smartarse comeback I'd expect from an older child. DD is also queen of the pithy comeback, even mid meltdown.

polter What's NVR?

Prinkley it's a technique called non violent resistance. A poster upthread recommended it.

I'm not expecting DS3's behaviour to vanish as nice as that would be! I know he is too young to regulate himself effectively. It's more I just don't know how to handle him when he's doing it. Whatever I do seems to feed it more :/ Maybe it's because I'm a workshy 41 year old slacker

GP surgery say I need to make an appt before they can refer further. Childcare is nigh on impossible atm so it will have to wait until they are back to school. Only a couple of weeks I suppose.

DS3 has had a really calm day today and thus far no going off. What has been interesting is what would be expected triggers for a reaction really aren't. But other things that don't leap out as a cause of upset really are.

DS4 was being a bit of beast himself today. Got in DS3's face screaming. No reaction from DS3 at all. DS4 won the first game of bingo, and was being a very ungracious winner. Again no reaction from DS3. DS3 then won bingo and was the model of calm again when DS4 was crying. (DS4 was told off btw)

Then DS3 was sitting on the gaming chair, he was wrigglying around and it folded on him. He went mad at DS4 for not helping him. DS4 hadn't seen what had happened. DS3 also got v upset when he realised what item DS2 had got from the arcade on holiday. (They'd won a load of tickets and you can then exchange for stuff. DS3 had picked his stuff straight away and was v happy with his lunchbox and marbles). He immediately wanted one, despite not knowing what is or what it did (wireless speaker).