Is a larger primary school better than a small one for children with SN?

[Satsunday]

I know it really depends on the individual school but my daughter's pedeatrician thinks that the larger primary schools are better for children with special needs. I need to apply very soon for my daughter for next year and the school I now have in mind is probably the largest in our area (about 470 children). I always thought my dcs would go to a small village school though, but some of them have no children at all with an ECHP so presumably they are less experienced in dealing with children with complex additional needs. But then wouldn't she get more attention if she's in such a minority in a small school?

I know it's probably hard to generalise but does anyone have any views on this?

Larger school will (likely) have more TAs and more experience of SEN.

They might have one TA who specialises in a certain SN, and they might be able to have a group of children with the same SN to do interventions together.

e.g. if you have lots of pupils with ASD it makes sense to run a social skills group, whereas if you just have one pupil in the infants you might not bother.

In general small schools are less well resourced than larger schools. Because you have the overheads of running a school (HT, secretary, etc) divided between less pupils, so you have less money.

Thanks, that makes sense.

I wish there was one answer as I'm finding it really hard to narrow it down to just a couple of schools to look at. Problem is we're thinking of moving house which leaves every single school in and around the city where we live as a possible option!

I'm nervous about a small school in case she gets picked on or seen as the only one who is 'different' but then I like the idea of possibly more attention and being in a small village school with a nice cosy environment. But then with a big school she will be amongst many other children with SN and also the opportunities might be greater for her in terms of activities and interventions.

polter was there anything that put you off sending your ds to a smaller school when you were first looking?

Smaller schools do not have the experience and expertise that the larger ones have. This experience and expertise is woefully inadequate but because it exists justifies a stance of 'we expert, you over-emotional parent'. More resources doesn't automatically mean meaningful or appropriate.

I would, unless it is an exceptionally inclusive larger school, choose the smaller school with their desperation for your help.

Thanks again for all your replies, gives me lots to think about. Probably erring more towards a larger school as I'm worried about her being talked about as the different one, or being in a class with a bully but the school being so small that she can't move to another class (although I'd worry about my younger dd without SN as well I guess).

polter I totally understand your point about a can do attitude. The people we met at the one school (very big) we do like so far were totally unfazed when I told them about dd. On the other hand the headteacher at our closest and smaller school looked horrified when we told her and then proceeded to tell us how they couldn't manage without extra funding, wouldn't provide any hours without an ECHP etc etc. Pretty discriminatory really. So they were ruled out despite being 5 mins walk from us.

You really have to go and get a feel for the school and meet the senco. The school I work at now is the smallest I've worked at (1 form entry) but by far the best for Sen mainly due to family ethos, asd unit and amazing senco. Our children with Sen are totally integrated, loved and supported by their classmates. However the school I have chosen for ds is much bigger than. I imagined for him, but with a really positive senco and a great feel that seems to suit him. Just go and visit as many as you can.

slkk out of interest does the school you work at have a high proportion of children with SN even though it's small? And are there many with an ECHP? Im just wondering because at one school I've looked at she might end up being the only one there with an ECHP which makes me think that they wouldn't be as used to dealing with more complex needs. But maybe that's not a reason to discount it without looking round.

I will definitely visit a few more though, hopefully it will all become clear once I do (if not I'm back to square one!!).

The local village school is smallish - about 150 or so kids, single form entry, and what it lacks in breadth of experience it more than makes up for in inclusive and caring attitude and sheer lack of being overwhelming. It was still all too much for DS1, but DS2 is loving it there, has had the same primary 1:1 since he was 2 (he's now in year 5) and, far from being the weird kid, is loved greatly. HT has also always provided resources for him over and above the minimum (and did the same for DS1).

Do keep on visiting schools. If you have a choice in your area, then you're bound to find one that's a reasonable fit.

Of course, one key issue in whether a school is sucking air through its teeth about funding and EHCPs through genuine concern about meeting needs or simply not wanting the extra effort and expense is whether or not they would be willing to work with you in applying for one.

I looked around a small (2 class type small) school when looking for DS and they were really unable to explain how they could support DS and just didn't seem right.

He now goes to a school that is a 1.5 form intake and that is very well set up to support children with sen.

You need to visit the schools, talk to sencos and they take if from there.

Good luck.

Entirely depends on the school and the child.

Downside with a large school can be sensory issues. Even if they are the best behaved children going, a large cohort is noisy and intimidating. I would be looking for sound and space quality of the dining room, main hall, classrooms and hallways. Also whether there are any smaller breakaway play areas in the playground.

On the downside of a small school. I have known a child who was dropped in the the most gorgeous middle class village school and was treated abominably. The school hadn't had anyone with autism before and didn't have a clue. The children were fairly hemogonised and really had very little clue about difference

There is something about large schools being able to hang on to some of there more skilled TA'S even without direct funding whereas a small school may not be able to bridge the gap

I agree with looking for inclusivity in school. Not all of the below will be relevant to your child but they do indicate a school that is thinking about inclusivity and have a degree of knowledge. I would be asking for things like.
Is there a space for children to go if they find the playground is too much? Do they have to go there? is it supervised?
Do any of the children ever wear ear defenders? How do other children react to that.
Do any of the children in the school use writing slopes? (look for them in classes if you can see them the school is already fairly proactive) do you stock pencil grips.
Do you have any connections with the local therapy service. Can it be arranged in necessary
Does your school run any active peer mentoring either academic or playground based.(enthusiasm for these kind of schemes I find often traces back an enthusiastically inclusive SLT and the children are learning about helping the less able members of their cohort)
Do you have community members who come in and help out or read with students (as mentioned above personally I would want an open environment confident that there is nothing to hide)
Do you run any additional handwriting or literacy programs (either on a one to one group or whole school bases

FWIW I really wouldn't be totally reliant on whether they were fazed or not. The special school that were entirely unfazed by DS were unfazed because they did bugger all for the children and failed him miserably. DS' mainstream school were convinced that they couldn't do as well for him but have in fact done fantastically better. What you want is a school that says to you we've looked at your child's needs we are confident we can be of benefit here here and here but are realistic about where there will difficulties too

The thing is you have got to be realistic. If your child's needs can't be met without an ehc then the school should be talking about an ehcp. They won't realistically be able to provide for complex needs in a mainstream environment without it.

Truthfully you are unlikely to know if it is the right place until the end of your first year of school/beginning of the next.

Sometimes it doesn't work out, headteachers change, needs change sometimes it's just not really apparent what the right needs are. I have known a lot of children who swap midway. Even if you "get this decision wrong" (I did), it's not permanent you can redo it it, but you will have a far clearer idea of your child's needs and will be better placed to get it right.

Thanks everyone, really glad I asked on here now.

toffee thanks esp for such a long reply, those questions are really helpful and I will be taking them with me on visits. She does have an ehcp thankfully so I won't have that to worry about at least.

Hi I wrote a long reply and it all got deleted! Yes, we have quite a lot of children with SEN - usually about 3 with EHCP per class. Most of these are based in our ASD unit, but there are plenty of mainstream children with sen (both with ehcp and without) throughout the school and plenty of wobble boards, fiddlers, screens, ear defenders etc dotted about. It does mean the children are well integrated and accepted. I remember one time in assembly and one of our children from the unit was starting to get distressed, rocking and making noises. No children turned to stare but the boy next to him just started stroking his back and whispering to him until he was soothed and managed to stay for the rest of assembly.
I think part of this attitude is because our children from the unit are well integrated (each has their own timetable so spend as much time in mainstream as is appropriate for each child) and partly because our senco is fantastic and very proactive in making sure she does all she can to get every scrap of help for all the children. We also have play and speech therapy in school for mainstream pupils.
When you are looking at school, do try and get a feel for the senco - you want one with a real can-do attitude. I don't know if there are any suitable units near you? We have chosen a unit in a mainstream school for ds (starts reception next week, yikes!). I chose this because TA support in mainstream can be amazing or dire, and I see how the children at my school have thrived and gained independence. I hope it's the right choice, but it feels like the best of both worlds at the moment.
Enjoy looking at lots of schools and good luck with your decision!

I think it depend on each school rather than size. My dd attend a large primary with open plan classrooms which I am not convinced are good for any child but makes it harder for kids with ASD. However, they do have expertise, seperate support for learning teachers, can run support groups, work well with NHS therapists and know how the LA SEN system works. A friend is thinking of sending her ds (ASD) to a nearby village school (less than 40 kids in total). It is a much quieter environment but there are only two teachers (one the HT) teaching across seven primary age groups so can't really give much more attention to each child, The support for learning teacher is a peripatetic teacher visiting just half a day a week. The schools allocation of EP time is very small. I ruled out the village school for my ds but so much depends on the HT.

My ds ( dyspraxia) goes to a large two form infant junior school. It's a church school with a mission statement that is so far from its real ethos ( suck up to the wealthy middle / upper class parents and churn out top set kids).

Is there a full time senco who only does that roll?
How long has the senco been there?
Do all classes have a ta?
How many kids have ehcps?
How many asd/ dyspraxic/ ADHD people have they had?
How offeren do slt and ehcp come in?
If needed have you ever helped sn kids move onto sn schools?

In my case size doesn't matter. It's to big for anyone to care about ds. They can offord to let him fail as they have so many bright kids there. I complain constantly but I'm just background noise

The senco is key. If a head has a good sen ethos it filters down

There's absolutely bugger all I can add to this, it's MNSN at its finest

slkk is there any chance we can clone you, or your school, or turn you into a MAT chain or something? I found I had something in my eye when I read your assembly story...

the headteacher at our closest and smaller school looked horrified when we told her and then proceeded to tell us how they couldn't manage without extra funding, wouldn't provide any hours without an ECHP etc etc

I really, really wish that there was some easy, no-blowback mechanism for us to name and shame these fuckers. This "it might be better if you looked elsewhere" mentality boils my piss like nothing else.

'This "it might be better if you looked elsewhere" mentality boils my piss like nothing else.'

And is why my ds' taxi drives past 2 large mainstream primaries with ASD bases (one, where my other two kids go) who would not accept him, to the wonderful one that did.

my ds went to an average sized junior school. 2 form entry. They weren't great the first 2 years and then new HT and new senco made all the difference. I'd look at the school and what they can offer your Dd for her specific needs.

Ds now goes to non catchment secondary because it's the smallest locally. 650 ish pupils. I felt a smaller school in regards secondary would benefit him but also because they have a great reputation for children with ASD (his SN).
Most importantly because they took the time to ask me what ds needs when we went to open evening.

slkk is there any chance we can clone you, or your school, or turn you into a MAT chain or something? I found I had something in my eye when I read your assembly story... yes same here, had tears in my eyes. It's exactly what I want for my dd - for both children and adults at school to care for her and look after her when she needs it.

Thanks again for the replies. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do but am arranging visits to different sized schools and hoping all will become clear when I look round. I have a great list of questions to ask thanks to everyone here :)