ABA - Negative information.....

[yakkiyakkiyogi]

Hi all. This is my first post so apologies for any silly mistakes etc although I've been reading posts on SN silently for over a year.

Just as a background, DS who is 3 has now got a dx of ASD just this month. Thats all I was told and still await the long detailed report the paediatrician said he'll send out soon. Have known for a year almost that a dx of this kind will be given as the traits were quite obvious. Been to the intial signposting event by ASD Outreach too but all my info is from extensively reading books and credible websites or forums like this. I've been reading a lot about ABA, its benefits and the struggles of getting it free of cost from LAs and was starting to consider how I can go about it and was planning to ask his EP when she visits for an observation at home next week. However, I've come across a negative article about it and that too by an ABA therapist. Also seen videos from an ASD person's perspective calling it amounting to "child abuse". So now I'm super confused. Links to article and video below:

sociallyanxiousadvocate.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/why-i-left-aba/

It'll be very useful to read opinions from you all as you have been facing this for much longer than I have. Thanks :)

PolterGoose: the OP asked about ABA in the context of SEN provision, so I advised to compare the evidence for interventions based on ABA and the alternatives to it for the skills that their child needed to develop, selecting the best fit for their circumstances. I don't think that this is too different to the process you've described, except that you have drawn different conclusions from me based on what your child needs, which is of course as it should be. I don't think I ever said that using interventions based on ABA would be the right approach for every child, just that it is the most effective approach for my son to learn communication skills. I also stand by my comments on the links posted: they have no relevance at all to my son's experience.

In my first post, I was not thinking of "eclectic" as the alternative at all: the eclectic model in education is not specific about which interventions are used, which is part of the problem in evaluating it. When I referred to "eclectic" in comment later, it was in the sense that LoupdeLoup explained it: the generic provision in special schools where I live, with many different interventions provided in a one size fits all way and without any proper monitoring of effectiveness. Some children may make progress with this approach, though clearly my son didn't.

I am truly sorry if I have upset anyone with my comments, I didn't set out to be critical of anyone.

Those reading about the subject may also wish to read suburbanautistics.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/real-science-and-aba.html?m=1 for a perspective from one parent.

Ok, I've read a lot of the links posted here (or links via links) and seriously want to know what is so wrong with compliance? It isn't disrespectful to expect an NT child to be willing to get dressed in the morning (not run naked around the house expecting me to chase him every time), eat at the table, go to school (and when they do follow instructions, etc).. Not run into the road at full speed when I am shouting "stop". You get the idea.

I do not want or expect a robot, and am seriously getting confused as to why this is such an issue?

Our own personal experience- a respected ABA therapist came to work with my son regarding his food issues-very restricted diet.
I knew in order to gain some success there was going to be some stress but the end result was 4 hours of sitting at a table not being allowed to get down (oh he was allowed the occasional break but if he wanted too many he wasn't allowed it ) crying, pleading, etc . Not allowed down until he ate a tiny bit of blueberry. He had done all the kissing, touching etc.
After this session I emailed the therapist with my concerns and he agreed on all the points I raised (too many to go into here) but the damage was done and there was no way I was going to let my son go through what he went through.
We have worked together discussing healthy food, making social stories about food, role playing with food, etc. He is making slight progress but his emotional well being is intact and yes it will take longer but I would rather that than put him through that again.
I guess the point is is that this therapist has been very successful with other children locally and everybody sings his praises but obviously his methods did not work for my son hence in a very long way I am basically agreeing that there is no point in them and us as ABA is great for some whereas other approaches are great for others!

Ok, I know I haven't made myself clear if you think I expect my son to be the same as an NT child. I know very well that is not the case.

I'm not saying I demand my asd child to do all the things I mentioned, that NT children do. What I'm trying to understand is if compliance training is so disrespectful/horrific how do I stop him running into the road? Or do I just continue with my current method of never taking him out of the house unless it's to his special nursery, or grandparents/friends houses, even though he adores the playground/park as he will just run off. I'm assuming there are alternative methods of treatment that deal with these issues... What makes them different in teaching him to listen to stop? I can't believe I just let him never follow instructions (which generally he doesn't) because he has asd .

Punky there are elements to any child's up bringing which are just about compliance. As you say they can't just run into the road or set fire to their own hair. As with any child sometimes we explain and sometimes we shock them into it eg have stern voice etc

However, when people talk about compliance negatively they mean getting children to act like they are 'supposed to' in a range of other situations. Ways which do not come naturally to them but aren't really a safety issue. Sometimes because an autistic person would find it too intense, uncomfortable or painful. Some therapies can train children to comply with these social norms even though the child is very uncomfortable with it. They are taught that the discomfort is normal and to be expected. Not explicitly but through (a lot of ) repetition, they learn what is expected and bend to that regardless.

The child isn't learning to be less autistic, they are just complying with a specific request that may have been made 1000s of times, sometimes in situations that seem normal to everyone else but cause anxiety to an autistic child.

To my knowledge they're aren't any follow up studies looking at adults who have undergone aba type therapies as Children and the resulting effects.

Sorry, I have a lot of questions swimming around my head from reading those links, especially unstrange minds which I found very insightful. I will try to get to the point!

We are about to start an ABA program for DS1(3 years old). The targets I've discussed with the BCBA consultant are all health and safety based, which she said are all linked to compliance, so that is where the teaching will initially focus.

I'm now confused from the most recent link from amberlight as to if this is a 'bad thing' ethically as it seemed to say all compliance training is abusive. I can't see how it is if the therapy is fun, and DS1 enjoys it. I would never allow him to have therapy that would stress or distress him, and nor would DH.

If we believed in a one size fits all approach we wouldn't take it in turns to sit with DS every night (for the last year and more) until he goes to sleep (sometimes for hours). Instead we would listen to the supposedly intelligent people who keep telling us to let him cry it out even though he becomes incredibly distressed/sobbing/screaming if we leave him for a second when he is still awake in his room.

Sorry, I have a lot of questions swimming around my head from reading those links, especially unstrange minds which I found very insightful. I will try to get to the point!

We are about to start an ABA program for DS1(3 years old). The targets I've discussed with the BCBA consultant are all health and safety based, which she said are all linked to compliance, so that is where the teaching will initially focus.

I'm now confused from the most recent link from amberlight as to if this is a 'bad thing' ethically as it seemed to say all compliance training is abusive. I can't see how it is if the therapy is fun, and DS1 enjoys it. I would never allow him to have therapy that would stress or distress him, and nor would DH.

If we believed in a one size fits all approach we wouldn't take it in turns to sit with DS every night (for the last year and more) until he goes to sleep (sometimes for hours). Instead we would listen to the supposedly intelligent people who keep telling us to let him cry it out even though he becomes incredibly distressed/sobbing/screaming if we leave him for a second when he is still awake in his room.

X-post soapbox queen. Thanks for your response. That is similar to my thought processes on compliance.

DH and I agreed before deciding on ABA that we do not want our son to lose his personality, and will be evaluating very carefully each target, and the methods we are shown to achieve them. If we are not happy we will stop. Going back to some of the examples of bad ABA in the links it would never have occurred to me to target lack of eye contact, or stims. I have heard some BCBAs would refuse to target those if asked anyway.

Punky if you want to try it, then try it but if I were you I wouldn't leave the room. I think the questions I would be asking would be, how are they going to instill this compliance? Maybe it will all be fun and your child will not become distressed but make sure you take note of behaviours maybe the day after as I know my ds can be delayed in his anxiety.

If you see anything causing distress you can step in.

I've seen some training videos of therapists starting the compliance element. Mainly getting the child to do simple activities or actions but the child is upset and crying because if it. The therapist seems to think this is par for the course and to be expected. I would not have been able to control myself if it were my child.

Many parents who have undergone aba with their child have said this wasn't the case for them and maybe it won't for you and your child. Just stay in their to make sure.

ABA has been great for my boy, nothing but kind and giving him the skills he needs for a better quality of life. The teacch school he was at achieved zero. But each to his own and tbh there is big demand for ABAA nowadays and a growing shortage of ABA school places and tutors, such that if someone is unsure they should stick with eclectic. I am bored of the same old accusations, and never anyone questioning the shite that passes for education in so many lacklustre UK special schools. Why not object to neglectful education, done on the cheap, for our precious kids? It is fine if your kid can hack it in mainstream, but some special schools I have been round are just woeful.

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed now...didn't think this was such a controversial topic when I posted the OP. I'm all for setting achievable targets for DS to reach for and am certainly not fully satisfied with the level and pace of the interventions introduced by SALT especially because of the really long gaps between blocks of sessions. However, the word "compliance" is just making me really uneasy. Its true that NT children are also made to "comply" to routines and societal norms and ASD does not create an exception for autistic child but it has to considered that the reasons for such basic level compliance can be explained to a NT child....how can we expect the autistic child to comply without understanding the reason behind it especially if the act/action is causing discomfort or even pain (which the child can't express so is silently suffering).
And then my mind wanders further thinking what extent of "compliance" can be called "OK" for anyone whether they are autistic or allistic...society used to consider homosexuality as a mental illness till a few decades ago so people had to "comply" by suppressing their real selves and act as if they were hetrosexual....thats now considered cruel and rightly so...so then how will getting someone autistic to "look normal" be seen a few years down the road....
I'm not being judgemental please don't get me wrong...just trying to figure out the main thought behind this intervention. One part of me is dying to do something, anything to give my DS the life I thought he'd have but then the other part is telling me that I'm trying to take him apart and then piece him together again the "supposedly" right way....how would I like that done to myself....there are so many things in life that I did which never "complied" with the social norms and would be looked down upon by many people in the world but I didn't let that change the way I lived my life to seek acceptance.....I don't know ...sorry for the rant
Another interesting read:
www.speakforyourself.org/2014/02/22/accept-behavior-towards-non-autistic-child/

Gosh the OP sure is posting a lot of anti ABA links for someone who is supposedly considering it. You are new to the board but wanted to come on here and start linking ABA to people who seek to "cure" homosexuality. Offensive on many levels. I think that you probably won't be trying ABA as you are very well versed in the anti ABA arguments I have seen on other chatrooms. Maybe go eclectic?

sickofsocalledexperts - Sorry to offend you or anyone else, that was never my intent. TBH I haven't removed ABA as an intervention for my DS yet and have just shared what I found out of pure intent to share links I've come across rather than for an "anti-ABA" campaign as insinuated. A balanced discussion on an issue needs to have both positive and negatives highlighted....and I was in no way linking ABA to people who want to cure homosexuality...I was only commenting on the word "compliance" that crops up everywhere and its extent. If I was well versed about ABA then I wouldn't have posted this...I was seeking opinions and wanted to share the little bit I had found too.
Is there a rule that says someone new to the board can't express their opinion freely...I mean I've seen many posts that provide an outlet to think aloud and I was doing the same....

I have to say I see many parallels between 'curing' homosexuality and certain autism therapies with much the same arguments.

I'm certainly not the only one to see them either.