How likely are a tribunal to place a child in a school with a dire ofsted?

[bjkmummy]

the LA have now said they intend just 4 weeks before the tribunal to name the school which is furthest away from our home (11 miles) , I have never stepped foot in and has just been given 'requires improvement' Ofsted report - it is also the biggest out of all the secondary's they could have named.

we are fighting for an indie school - every report says she needs a small school (current primary has less than 30 kids) last tribunal judge stated clearly that he wanted to hear from the secondary school how they could meet her needs re noise. the LA conceded so didn't have that battle but they have named a different secondary school now to the senco they bought with them last time to the tribunal.

The LA are not happy I am asking for my EP to go into the school the LA name (cant think why)

what an absolute mess - final evidence just a week away as well so ive got so much on and now somehow have to get to this school to visit it and I have a feeling they are just going to stall me aren't they and then the following week is half term - time is running out!

so - in reality how much notice will the tribunal take of a schools Ofsted report and will they place her into a school 'requiring improvement'

I think they have to take it into account but i don't know how much weight a crap ofsted report holds. I have read somewhere that LA's can refuse to place children in failing schools so in theory it should work both ways. One thing to bear in mind is that the LA might try and argue that the failing school will be good because it will have extra funding and resources thrown at it to help it improve

at the end of the day its a large mainstream school and on that alone they cannot meet her needs so the Ofsted is I guess really a minor thing.

found in the tribunal practice directions that you can send a professional in to look at a school and its suitability so fingers crossed the judge allows us an extension to get the report done.by opposing it the LA are showing they have something to hide as surely if the school can meet her needs they will be happy to fully explain how they will do it

I am sure the judge will allow it bjk at each of the tribunals I have been to, late evidence has been handed in on the day everytime and last week shenanigans over changing representativies 4 days before the hearing was allowed too!!

I cant see a judge refusing to allow such an important piece of evidence at the end of the day if your LA had named the school weeks ago like they should have it wouldnt be an issue, would it!!

Fuckwits!!

found in the tribunal practice directions that you can send a professional in to look at a school and its suitability so fingers crossed the judge allows us an extension to get the report done

It is Human Rights Act (praise God we still have it for now) Right to a Fair Trial which includes "Equal Access to Evidence" as part of "Equality if Arms".

If the LA are late in letting you know about the school so that your witness can only view it and report after the deadline then the Tribunal would be at risk of breaching your Human Rights if they did not allow the report in late.

I fear that the choice of a larger school may be because they have identified a small room somewhere that DC can go to do have some sensory issues related stuff. So makke sure that you and ypur expert get to the bottom of how they propose to meet dc's needs there.

OFSTED will not be decisive. They rarely are more than 5% of the Tribunal's thinking IMO.

You could apply for an order that the LA specify in a report how the new school will meet dc's needs.

And as they have changed heart. put them on "notice for costs" ie say that if the new school clearly cannot meet dc's needs then you wil be asking for the costs of the expert visit and report.

Good Luck

I have asked for the LA to specify how the school can meet her needs - judge due to order on Tuesday by the looks of things.

my expert making the first call to school on Monday to start the process of getting in - I also have to phone as I have never been inside the school myself so as parents we need to view it. she has cleared her diary with the potential to try and get in next week if needs be but I suspect there will be stalling tactics now to be played.

ive also sat with my expert this afternoon (shes been to do a follow up assessment on dd so timing been great) and the LA school costs for all of the therapies etc come in at £47.5k without transport - my school for everything is £45K . the LA are yet to add up the costs of what they have agreed to - I think they think my school is a £100k placement which it isnt

If the school or LA stall, do an immediate application to the tribunal for an order that the school allow your expert to visit. Make sure you mark the application urgent and explain why.

Make sure you push for transport costs, including an escort if your dd needs it. I would have thought 11 miles each way would be expensive. Also, how long does the journey take, particularly in rush hour traffic?

Agree with PP that a top-level Ofsted RI judgement on a school is unlikely to be a pivotal factor with a Tribunal panel in your situation.

However, I know of some cases where the Ofsted judgement has mattered a great deal - it's a sore point with me, this. My DS's amazing indie SS recently got an RI judgement - from talking to parents who recently tried and failed to secure funding for a place there, this Ofsted judgement weighed heavily in their cases.

It's worth checking this school's report line-by-line though, as there might be stuff in there that will support your case.

The report will contain a judgement on the progress that pupils with SEN make in relations to others at the school. This judgement will almost certainly be bollocks, based on little more than a statistically illiterate inspector checking data - but it might be useful if it casts doubt on the ability of pupils with SEN to progress there.

Also, if the RI grading has been heavily influenced by the standard of behaviour at the school, then that could also matter too.

part of the requiring improvement is due to the sen kids failing to make progress. not sure about the behaviour - will double check that.

Sounds like the OFSTED will help you along nicely given that it applies specifically to SEN.

So you and your expert will have to have sharp eyes out for "we are changing everything, everything will be in place any day now".

On your visits, you and the expert should take careful notes of what they say they have
a) changed, and
b) are going to change shortly
in response to the OFSTED

Then if the LA lean on them to say a different story at Tribunal, you can ask them why theur story at Tribunal is different from the answers that they gave you and your expert on the visit.

Hope this helps

the Ofsted makes reference as well to the sen kids attendance not being great..... a friend in the know about the school has already asked me to ask questions re exclusions and sen kids leaving the school......

done another email to sendist today so will phone them Monday to make sure they match it up with the other emails.

tomorrow the battle starts for me to try and view the school - will be interesting to see if they welcome me with open arms - im tempted to email the SENCO rather than phone so there is a log of the emails that I can submit in my final evidence

Definitely email bjk I got caught out with an email the other day!

I hadnt entered any in my evidence but the flamin senco turned up with the one where I said I couldnt make a meeting that week!!

Papertrail, papertrail, papertrail!!

yes think I will email now so they can pick it up tomorrow - my EP is also going to phone the school at 9.30am tomorrow morning as well so if shes phoning and im also trying to phone = I may well not get through so I will email I think. im clueless with secondary so not sure of the 'protocol' as in how easy it is to up and speak to a senco. I guess you end up just leaving messages anyway

So let me get this right.

Your super soaraway LA has not just selected the largest school in the area - going explicitly against all sane professional advice - but they've picked one that has an Ofsted report clearly pointing at crap SEN educational & pastoral provision?

yep ugger and the cherry on the cake - its also the furthest away from where we live as well - 11 lovely miles

Do you know how long the journey would take? Particularly if it's something like a shared taxi picking up and dropping off other children? If it means a long journey to and from school, you could use that as an argument. Notionally the maximum journey time should be no more than 1 hour 15 minutes each way, but even if it's less than that you can argue that it's counter-productive for your daughter to arrive at school tired and be too tired in the evenings to do any homework etc. Also if there's something like medical or occupational therapy evidence saying she would find it particularly difficult to cope with long journeys, that would be helpful.

the Ofsted makes reference as well to the sen kids attendance not being great..... a friend in the know about the school has already asked me to ask questions re exclusions and sen kids leaving the school......

Again an foi will bring this out.

And again they will wax lyrical at Tribunal about how everything will change now, and be hunkydory by the time mini-bj arrives...

the journey I think will be a good half hour if not more - unlikely I think that this side of the county there is a single child going to the school as the school inaccessible by public transport and there is no school bus from my town that will go to the school - the school it practically in the next county and down a country lane so not a school that a bus goes by or you can walk to even. no one from this town would go there as there is an outstanding academy in town with a unit or another closer school again which is just 5 miles away = kids go to one of these - not to this school.

my elder son who I transport to school is in a school in our opposite county so the distance between the 2 schools going to be 30 miles so if anything happens to my dd im going to struggle to get to her - not that the LA will care. I still cant get my head around how the 2 schools I thought they would name and would give us a good run for our money at tribunal have not been named.

my friend did suggest a FOI but I have only about 28 days ish to the hearing so time is against me.

today my EP starts the battle to get in the school and I have already emailed the school - lets see if we get any response back today - next week is also half term

also got the SW coming today about the boys - time to clear my living room of the paperwork but may well just leave my code of practice on the floor as it will all be reported back as she sits in the same office as the sen team

Their choice would appear to be a gift as it is clearly insane . I would definitely put the LA on notice for recovery of the cost of expert assessment of the school. It still pisses me off that I had to spend thousands to prove that a school DS1 had never attended (and never would) was unsuitable.

Don't forget the socialisation aspect - as a distant day pupil DD would not have the same opportunity to build friendships, and with a taxi would have problems attending after school clubs. otoh weekly boarding increases opportunities for structured social activities and builds skills of personal independence.

their choice would appear to be a gift as it's clearly insane yes! Pretty much my first thought.

It sounds as if you have loads of clear evidence as far down to costs what would meet your dd needs and why. Good luck with your expert - I think you have some good questions to ask them.

For some reason only LAs must understand they seem hell bent on fighting unnecessary fights re education ATM.

well the senco of the LA is off sick and wont return until after half term so no chance of our EP now viewing before the evidence deadline.

ive spoken to the school this morning myself to try and get in and they are WTF? why has this school been named ...... I honestly believe the school hasn't been fully consulted hence why the LA will not disclose the letters showing the school have said yes, they named it in a panic and think 'they will offer her as a place as they always have room' if that's the game they really haven't thought this through at all especially as someone from the school will have to come to the hearing and argue that their school can meet her needs.

the school now coming back to me about visiting - ive said I need to get in this week but will see if they come back to me......

What do you mean about the senco of the LA? Do you mean the school? Surely that shouldn't stop the EP going in - if she's got queries to discuss with the SENCO she could do it by phone later.

Can you ask the school to let you have copies of any correspondence they have? As it's about your child, you're entitled to it.

yes - I do indeed mean the senco of the school not the LA - sorry

the school will now allow me in for a 'general' visit on Friday but two TAs showing me around and made it clear they cannot answer any specific questions I have. My EP now going in after half term and hopefully will see the senco. (if she returns from being sick)

im waiting on an order coming back from sendist - should be tomorrow and ive asked for all of the paperwork from all of the schools to be disclosed plus an extenstion to submit evidence about LA school - fingers crossed sendist find in my favour and give us an extension and also start telling the LA to hand stuff over.