Calling ABA experts

[sphil]

My second question of the night...

I'm starting the Growing Minds Training in March with DS2, a lot of which is Discrete Trial Training. Have started following the ABLSS already on their advice but have come up against a problem. It's a bit hard to explain so bear with me...

DS2 just seems to be learning the tasks by association with the objects we use, rather than actually understanding the instruction. For example, I've been teaching him 'Give me...' by putting down an array of common objects (shoe, spoon, ball) and saying 'Give me ...'. He can do this with no problem. But if I try to do matching with the same items, by putting down a shoe, spoon and ball, handing him a ball and saying 'put with same' he just tries to hand me the ball (or whatever) as if I'm saying 'Give me'. What am I doing wrong? Am I muddling him by using the same set of items for different tasks? But if I don't, how will I know if he really understands the instruction?

Hope you can follow this - I need a video link really!

DS1 was like this with imitation when we did it before (a year ago). he could imitate set actions in set places, but hadn't learned to generalise (so didn't fully understand the skill).

Are you trying to avoid saying match ? It might be a simpler instruction to follow. I think I would use different objects tbh initially- easier to prompt - otherwise it might be confusing.

Yep, I am trying to avoid saying it I have an irrational dislike of the word. But (in my defence m'lord) 'A Work In Progress' suggests saying 'put with same'. So there!

How did DS1 learn to generalise?

Ah well I won't argue with a work in progress

I think he got older tbh. A year ago he couldn't do it/didn't get it, now he does...... We did work for over a year on it (before leaving the formal stuff). Sometime during that break it clicked....

Obviously I don't know anything about the principles of the program you are following so ignore if this is rubbish.
As he isn't understanding the instruction "put with same" - could you simplify it right down - first just put out e.g. one ball. Then hand him the identical object and say "ball with ball". Then increase to two objects and say for both "ball with ball", "spoon with spoon" . If he hands an object back to you - you could match it yourself saying "ball with ball", "spoon with spoon". Maybe even do with him, hand over hand. Then maybe when he's started to understand that and does it himself, spotlight it (sorry can't help the RDI creeping in ) by saying "you put same with same" so he begins to associate that instruction with the action.

Sorry you wanted ABA experts which I most certainly am not . Feel free to ignore me.

The table top work is pretty Lovaas Socci. We taught it like Socci! (the matching).

oh sorrry I meant the GM table top work is pretty Lovaas. (overall they use a mix of appraoches, but the table top is Lovaas).

I haven't quite read this thoroughly but if you are doing DTT I would suggest looking at the "Maurice manual", Behavioural Intervention for Children with Autism (or something close to that) available from Taskmaster in Leicester.
We always said "put with same" and I stopped finding the phrases grating ("nice looking at me" ugh!) after a while. If I remember and can get the terminology right, you need to start with just the object you are working on and HOH prompt as Socci says with R+. Then I think you introduce one (or maybe its two) other objects and I would probably go for different objects to the ones you have been using for "give me". You can use positional prompt, tapping, eye prompt (I mean YOU indicate the correct one with your eyes) there is a whole hierarchy of prompting, I think I've got a document about it somewhere if you want it. Then you teach one of the other objects, then the other and then you go into random rotation..... The skill then goes into maintenance usually before generalisation unless its a skill the child gets easily. I found DTT the best and most thorough and effective way of teaching anything new. We also used "no, no, prompt" which I also believe was extremely effective for DS and for children like him. I've seen too many kids confused and unsure that they are in a "teaching situation" iyswim even though much of a session would be fun and not table-top.

Hope some of that makes sense

That's great all of you, thanks!

Socci - speed of trials is a problem for DS2. He is very day dreamy and tends to 'zone out' if I leave too long between each trial, yet he has very slow processing time so I need to leave long enough for him to process the instruction. Atm he gets small bits of crisp as a reinforcer (though he's starting to accept social reinforcement for things he finds easier) and I have to wait until he's finished eating it before I move on - he can't do two things at once. I don't think I'm prompting quickly enough either, again because I'm aware he takes a while to process. It all makes for rather slow and halting DTT. We do all of it at the table atm, for the same reason as you did with DD. I do generalise some things in play though - again the things he finds easier - NOT matching!

Saker - your idea seems eminently sensible to me. My problem with 'match' is that it's meaningless to him - at least 'put with same ' gives him a few more clues. Does anyone else know if there's an ABA reason why I shoudn't say 'put ball with ball' etc to start with?

Davros - I started with one object which he can do. It's when I introduce more that the problems start. He'll do two or three trials correctly but then starts making mistakes. I think I've probably been jumping ahead too quickly in my excitement and not consolidating each stage enough.
I would love the hierarchy of prompting document if you've got it. Was very glad to hear that you use 'no, no prompt' - haven't been able to stop myself doing this and thought it might be wrong. It's the one thing that annoys him though - he tends to shout 'no. no' back .

I use NNP with DD sometimes! Mind you, its doesn't have to be exactly "no" "no" prompt iyswim. It can be any word or "signal" to end a trial. We stopped using "no" with DS quite early on and I know others who did the same as they find that word so aversive. It can just be "try again" or something as long as its neutral and serves the same function as NNP. I don't know if you've come across Mastery Criteria yet. That is something we also dropped early on and so did a lot of my friends. We found it counter productive as trying to reach whatever it is - 80% (or was it 90%?) success across 2 different people on two different days? - meant that we were flogging things to death, DS was getting bored and resistant and his performance went down so, in theory, we had to do it even more. It didn't make sense so we would agree that certain things were probably mastered and checked them in maintenance. But you have to be careful that things are considered mastered on very good grounds and then monitored.
I think you wouldn't say "put ball with ball" because you are teaching the receptive label "ball" rather than the skill of matching iyswim. You have to be careful not to try teaching one thing and actually teaching another. For instance, with imitation it must be "do this" (or similar) as that is the skill you are teaching. Are you keeping the targets as functional as possible too? Its easy to get carried away and find they understand a certain skill and teach loads and lods, e.g. receptive labels. There is no need to teach "rocket", "fairy", "Mr Punch" etc etc not in DS's case anyway!
I will dig out the Hierarchy of Prompting doc I've got and I think I've also got the Lovaas training manual somewhere which describes DTT very clearly. If I forget, remind me with a CAT.

Just read Socci's last post. I've also got a reinforcer assessment document I can send you.

I find tapping a really useful prompt - and easy to fade. Davros please can I have the hierarchy of prompting thingy as well

Socci - I can only really use food reinforcers with 100% success - he might take notice of a sound toy once or twice but no more. I have been taking notes after each session and use the ABLLS mastery criteria - which is slightly different for each target. There's a difficulty with generalisation atm because it's only me working with him, although I'm getting his 1:1s to generalise some skills at nursery. When we start the GM programme proper in March we'll get some tutors on board - part of the problem is that we're moving, so I think it's probably best to wait until then to find tutors.

Davros - I've been worried about flogging things to death as well. Mainly matching! It's the only one we've had to flog really - 'Do this' took a while to get going but he's got the hang of it now, though he can't do long sequences of actions yet. And he's doing really well on all the receptive language stuff - making me realise he understands a lot more than we thought. It's just the concept of matching he doesn't seem to get.

How often do you have to practise a skill in maintenance?

JJ - I do a LOT of tapping! Partly because it makes him look when he's staring over my shoulder...

We go through phases where only food will do. Ds1 has started to get quite attached to objects- looking at them etc, and I've found that taking them away and offering them for 10 seconds rewards works well. (I thought he might go ape). Would offering ds2 the carpet- "match first then carpet" work yet (understanding x, then y has been really useful for us, but your ds is still little).

We've got rid of the carpet! J did a big spring clean at half term and chucked it out - it was all frayed where DS2 had been kicking it as well as being absolutely filthy . So that stim is no more...

Oh hang on - did you mean carpet as in 'play time away from the table?'

He does seem to understand 'first x then y' - but he doesn't like it. Always gets a reaction of 'Nooooo '- and then a garbled repeat of whatever I've just said

You've got rid of the carpet!!!! How did he take it (I meant the actual carpet!) Wow- I'm impressed with your bravery (I dread the reaction!)

Is your email working now I've just emailed you

It is - have just e-mailed you back.

He didn't seem to notice the absence of carpet - but he still kicks any others he can find . It's had a positive effect - we've moved DS1's beanbag into the room in the place where the carpet used to be and DS2 now sometimes sits on it to watch TV rather than standing with his nose pressed to the screen. He'll even sit there with one of us from time to time. We'll have to move it when the estate agents come mind you - it's lilac and fluffy. Which tells you a lot about DS1