How can I prove school can not meet needs? Transport based…..

[Four4me]

I'd appreciate some of your experience please?

My dc1 is 11 and starts year 7 in September, he has Downs and is still got a statement (not transferred to EHC yet). He has been well supported at our local mainstream primary. We have looked at both our local mainstream secondary (1 mile away) and another mainstream 7 miles away and the closest special needs school (also 7 miles away).

The 7 mile away mainstream was our preferred school (PS). The local school (LS) has had a period of staffing issues including the senco leaving and one not being in post as we looked round.

The PS has a large learning support department, which has a fabulous reputation, lots of experience, loads of appropriate resources and a few other children with DS some of whom my DS1 knows through sn swimming squad. Close links with the sn school.
LS has minimal resources, no experience of DS children or others with his academic levels.

So last October when I applied of school place I selected PS. Which fast forward to this year has been put onto Part 4 of his statement, with a paragraph stating that it is parental preference and no transport would be provided.

I appealed this decision and basically the new in post senco (who has seen his statement) wrote a one line email stating that they could meet his needs at the Local School. He is still on p scales in most areas academically and they didn't have any appropriate resources, any idea about how they would incorporate his academic level into the classroom with the NC. In fact the head of year 7 that we met with seemed overwhelmed with the level of need ds1 has.

The appeal was horrible and I was very emotional, I felt like I was in the wrong for asking for transport for ds1 to access an amazing educational opportunity. He is not capable of travelling independently at the moment. I have three younger children to get to primary school at the beg/end of the day and it is not logistically possible to get to the two schools and all of them being on time.

Sorry.. Basically I need to prove that the local school can't meet his needs to have any chance of getting support with transport. I've made a list of his needs, academically, emotionally, socially etc but what I need help with is how is it objectively measurable to show a school is unable to meet needs? Any advice will be gratefully received.

Am have posted in sn education too.

Have you considered the peer group point of view? That can be argued at a tribunal. It sounds as though DS has a peer group at the PS as he knows some of the children already. Does he have an appropriate peer group at the local school? What about extra curricular activities, are there any that he could access at the PS that aren't available at the LS?
What resources do they have at the PS that they don't at the LS? Write down a list of all the things he would get at the PS and compare with the LS and then try and see where it fits with his statement and you might find that some gaps appear.
Ask the LS to write/email and confirm exactly how they will his needs. Will they provide 1:1? How will they differentiate the curriculum? etc. Will he get all of the therapies that are in his statement (if there are any)

That's all i can think of for now but some others will be along soon who are loads better at this than me

Thank you fairgame I said about the peer group at the appeal panel and one of the councillors said 'if he doesn't go there that there'll not be any one with Downs syn. for the next child'

She also said 'you never know LS may improve in the future' I was too upset by it all to respond. I'm normally quite robust but I just couldn't keep a lid on my emotions that day and have had many sleepless nights since. Dh works away so I do feel like fighting the 'big boys' on my own!

I've added your suggestions to my list, much appreciated, I hadn't thought of after school clubs. Ds1 is very sporty and would definitely want to be involved.

My LA tried similar stuff banging on about the 'future' of a crap placement they tried to put my son into. The future doesn't count, tribunal are only interested in what is available now. It not your son's job to make the school ready for the next child with Downs syndrome what a ridiculous thing to say

Try an foi asking for the training and experience of all of the relevant staff ie those who will interact with dc, at each school.

What extra qualifications do they hold?
What courses have they attended, and how long for?
What experience do they have of DS, teaching at p levels, embedding Salt in the classroom etc etc

Maybe do the same things for physical facilities for one to one teaching, physio, sensory or anything that is in your statement.

AND of course for facilities that you know PS has and LS doesn't.

You can just make a table for each person to fill in.

Then you can put the answers from each school side by side.

Hope this helps

ps Do you have a helper from DSA or IPSEA?

If you want to show that the school isn't able to meet his needs you will need to appeal to SENDIST, but that depends whether you are within the 2 month time limit. You would need at least an EP to visit the local school to see if there is evidence that it can't meet your child's needs. But I'm afraid it is likely to be an uphill struggle unless there is something fairly obvious, because once you have said that one mainstream school can meet his needs then the assumption is that any mainstream school can.

The PS has a large learning support department, which has a fabulous reputation, lots of experience, loads of appropriate resources

Getting across that this is what your dc needs will be key.

I agree getting an EP to visit both schools would be good, but costly.

One thought is that it will probably cost more to support dc in special school, so if they see that expense on the agenda, they may back down and let you have your PS. If you have anyone who can point out to the LA how very reasonable you are being saving the public the cost of a special school, it may just help your case.

May be worth a try

Thank you for your replies, it is nice to have people who understand the system to 'talk' too. My rl friends are very supportive, but have no experience of having a child with sn and the challenges it brings.

Is the two months from the date of the letter from the appeal panel?
Can I pay an EP privately or does it have to be the one on ds1's statement? (I've never met him, as he has never attended his annual review meetings).

When I made the choice of schools last October the local school couldn't meet his needs plain and simply because they had no SENCO in post.

I actually feel that the decision of the panel at appeal was made before I even went in (which actually makes me stop the 'should have said this/not said that' conversation going on in my head).
The parent partnership lady has been on a/l and is so busy with increased work load due to the increase to 25 years on the EHC. I've sent her an email so hopefully I can ask her next week when she is back at work.

Thanks again

The 2 months is from the date of your finalised statement. I'm not sure you can go to sendist on the back of an LA panel meeting but someone may come along and clarify that.
You would have to pay for an independent EP.

When you got the final amended statement naming the LS, did it have a letter with it saying that you had 2 months to appeal to SENDIST? If so, that sets the deadline for a SENDIST appeal.

If not, and this is crucial, you can ask them to produce the letter and your two months will run from the date on the letter. They don't often fail to send a letter that meets their legal obligations to tell you about appeal, but it is well worth checking.

Yes you can pay for an independent EP and that is what happens a lot, just check you have one that has a good reputation.

It may be worth trying to speak to the LA's EP just in case they are on your side, and say something helpful.

If they do say something helpful, then follow the call up with an email and say 'just to confirm our earlier conversation...'

However most LA EPs are obliged not to state which school they advise, at least to start with, but you might find them saying something helpful to your case.

Another angle to look at is whether the LS will have to bring in and train up a lot of staff who are already on the pay roll of PS. That will all depend on what the statement says. If the statement talks about speech and language therapy, it may be that the PS has trained staff to deliver that therapy, and the LS doesn't.

Just going to check IPSEA's notes on transport in case there is something there
Hope this helps

Yikes have just looked and his statement was amended on 11th February.

When did you receive the final statement. Its 2 months from when you received it (sendist pulled my LA up on this as they worded the letter as 2 months from the date it was sent). If you get an appeal written tonight and post it special delivery tomorrow then you might just make it.

Well fine.

Whilst you are appealing, have a look at anything in Part 2, and 3 that could be better.

If you have any of the following in Part 3, then you should ask for them to be made more specific:-
" access to" How often, how long for, who decides,
" regular" How often, how long for, who delivers?
"opportunities for" as above
"benefit from" - well is DC getting it or not??

Just get something together saying that you are planning to seek independent advice and will identify precise changes to the statement when you have that advice.

Set out from the heart why you think the LS won't manage, and the PS will

You can email it as well as sending it.

Here is a link to the form
hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/send024-eng.pdf

Shout if you get stuck.

IPSEA www.ipsea.org.uk can give help, but the main job is to get the thing in the post and email asap

Good Luck

Thank you, the part 4 names the school I want in it PS.
It has a paragraph after it saying 'the LA accepts that this school would be suitable, it is not the nearest school and the LA considers that that it would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources if it had to provide or fund home to school transport to this school. '

Still need to appeal to get the sentence removed, so you will need to seek to amend parts 2 and 3 so that it becomes clear why LS cannot meet needs.

And finish off by saying that as only PS can meet needs, the transport paras should be removed and transport should be provided.

Froom what you have said LS does not have teachers and TAs experienced in teaching pupils with DS and this is something DC needs, so that should be added to Part 3
Ditto DC needs a peer group to work with for some of her therapy - possibly speech and language therapy that is better taught in a small group.

Also, given that PS has a peer group of DS children, the therapy that DC needs can be delivered more efficiently eg by one terapist between 4 than the cost at LS where it would be one to one.

Lob in everything you can think of and you can tidy it up after it is in

Hope I'm helping here

you need to check the date of the letter that came with the statement in February as you only have 2 months to appeal,

im assuming you appeal the transport by a LA panel and that has been turned down. even if you are technically out of time submit the appeal anyway and explain the delay due to the transport panel hearing. a year 6 appeal is fast tracked so is 12 weeks - you should get an appeal in before the end of the term - the appeal may be enough for the LA to reconsider rather than fight it to tribunal - if you do appeal you will need to do what has been suggested above.

incidentally my LA did the same to me but I could transport my son - 2 years on they have now removed that clause as they accept the school he is in is the only school that can meet his needs - I really need to know start to ask for my transport costs!

Just found this in the Tribunal Regs

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/405920/health-education-social-care-chamber-tribunal-procedure-rules.pdf

"Calculating time
12.—(1) An act required by these Rules, a practice direction or a direction to be done on or by a particular day must be done by 5pm on that day.
(2) If the time specified by these Rules, a practice direction or a direction for doing any act ends on a day other than a working day, the act is done in time if it is done on the next working day. "

Not 100% sure this applies to the 2 month deadline, but if it does, you have until Monday

Bear with me....

Thank you so much, I'm form filling as we speak.

also the tribunal are moving to paperless so in I think you can now submit the appeal paperwork by email - always used to be by post

i think in most cases like this, you will have to pay transport. If the LS have said they can meet his needs then youd have to let them try or pay for transport or drive him yourself, if both are mainstream. My ds only got transport when he got a place in a SEN school in year9, before that he was in a non-local mainstream which was my preference but it was made clear id have to get him there.

if you insist on the sen school youd certainly get transport but by saying you want mainstream then theyll see it as hes ok for mainstream and the onus would be on the LS to up their game

OK The Tribunal Regs set the two month deadline
"The application notice(e)
20.—(1) ...an applicant must start proceedings before the Tribunal by sending or delivering an application notice to the Tribunal so that.... it is received—

(c) [in a special educational needs case—
(i) within 2 months after written notice of the decision being challenged was sent to the applicant"

So by Tribunal Reg 12 above you have to get it there by 5pm Monday.

Obviously if you email over the weekend and use Royal Mail next day delivery you should be fine, because you are unlikely to have received it on the date on the letter - even bj's hand delivered-on-a-Saturday LA doesn't do that.

Section 5 also says
"(3) Where first class post is used, the document or notice shall be treated as served, sent or given on the second working day after the date of posting, unless the contrary is shown.
(4) Where second class post is used, the document or notice shall be treated as served, sent or given on the fourth working day after the date of posting, unless the contrary is shown."

SO YOU ARE OK FOR TIME (just)!!

Thank you all for your help, I've emailed the completed form (not straight forward to fill in as it is based around an EHC not a statement), but it has gone and I've received notification that they have received it.
I'm so grateful!

Don't both email the form and send it by post, they're terribly insistent that they do not want documents sent twice. Email aloe is fine.

Word of warning though, if the letter was sent on the 11th then the deadline was 5 pm on the 10th - unless you can show that the LA didn't post the letter on the 11th. But with any luck SENDIST won't make a fuss about a few hours anyway.

You definitely need an independent EP, preferably one that is used to tribunal work.

Email alone, not aloe.

i hate to panic you but have you done the right form? there is a form on there just to appeal a statement and also another form which is to appeal an EHCP - if you have inadvertently done the wrong form them just redo it and email it with a little note saying disregard the previous email - they should pick them up together and will obviously just list the right one