Dual placement- bad idea?

[adrianna22]

Hi

For the past couple of months I've been interested about dual placements for DS.

Though, usually the majority of the people that I've spoken to about, seem dead against it.

They also strongly advised me that I'll need to argue why a dual place setting will be best for him.

I'll appreciate if you can tell me your views about this.

Does it mean that he would be using two places (one in each setting), or would there be another child who would be doing similar but the opposite way round, if you see what I mean?

I think a disadvantage would be lack of consistency. I don't know how to explain this properly, but often learning is planned as a continuous narrative, rather than a series of stand-alone events. He would be getting half of that (or whatever the proportion is), sort of like watching half the episodes in a box set.

It is pretty common where there is a special needs unit attached for mainstream for kids to join in some mainstream lessons. And a friend had a dc at West Heath School who went to college from there when he was 16, and then back to West Heath for SN education.

Is that the kind of thing?

I think the problem you might have is convincing the tribunal that your ds needs a specialist placement if he can cope with ms.
what are your reasons for wanting the dual placement?

are these reasons backed up by professionals?

I think the LA could easily manipulate the situation here and say specialist placement is not needed as you are requesting ms aswell so he must be able to manage ms. also the inconsistency of 2 different settings - the LA will more than likely propose that this will be distressing and confusing for the child etc.
then the travelling arrangements - who will fund this?
Also if staff need to be trained, this will have to be done in both settings, increasing the costs.
then you have to factor in the child has to build a relationship with the staff and learn to trust them, this could take longer in 2 settings.
are you requesting any 1:1 from a TA? as they may well need to employ 2 different people, 1 for each setting.
socially how would your ds cope with 2 different groups of children/ peers?
There would have to be a high level of communication between both settings to ensure they are both on the same page and are working on the same targets etc. This is where you could run into trouble if the communication is not good and too many different approaches are being used with your ds it could become confusing resulting in anxiety etc.

sorry for sounding negative, I'm just trying to prepare you for how the LA might play this. only you know your ds and if you feel he needs this then I would be on the phone to the civil legal advice line ASAP! good luck

Thanks for your replies.

No sevet- most of the units in my borough and outer borough are full. So I would ideally like for him to go to two settings.

Wow billejean I never thought of it like that! But I've read some parents on this board were able to get dual placements, there's even a boy in DS class that has a dual placement too.

I wasn't looking into a long term dual placement. Ideally I would like to see whether a full time time special provision would work or how a mainstream school with support could work also and I thought a dual placement will give me a clearer picture.

I am looking into specialist units attached to a mainstream school also. But the places are so limited- even to the point that they only take two kids from each year group.

Well for now the reports point to a mainstream provision, though my independent reports point to a specialist provision.

My LA would consider a dual placement, if it was at out local special school.

Interesting that your LA already have given dual placements before. Are the kids who have those dual placements like your dc? If the LA already has a track record on making these work, I am more hopeful about you getting it.

As an alternative to dual, can you get a feel for how each might work by getting a trial day at your preferred special? Or maybe they do a holiday club/respite care which would give you a bit of insight?

Some indie experts will visit both schools and advise you on how they would suit. One special school can be so unlike the next, too.

Not sure how much we can say without knowing your dc's age and what provision you are wanting for him

Hope this helps

Thanks for the info senvet

DS 5,has ASD as well as a severe speech impediment.

Ideally I'm looking for a communication type specialist setting as well as for him to get intensive speech support.

DS is academically able, but the special schools I've seen so far don't seem to stretch the kids academic skills, which was why I was considering a dual place with his mainstream.

The boy in DS class ( that has the dual placement) has severe autism, but is able to talk- even though most of the speech is echolalia. DS ASD is mild, but his communication/ speech and language are severely delayed.

I could do like a holiday/ respite thing. But the independent specialist strongly advise me that he needs the intensive support ASAP.

I get it. These bright ASD kids are tricky to place. On the one hand, early intervention on the SEN is key, and lots of countries do not start at mainstream primary school until 6 or even 7 - Scandinavia I think - and by the time they leave school they are no less educated than our kids from the UK.

But the ideal would be somewhere that can do the SALT and stretch dc academically. I heard an EP say that tended to be an independent special school.

I would be concerned about the local maintained ss being able to do the intensive SALT needed. But as you go round the schools, you will get a feel for what would be the best match. Nothing is ever perfect, whichever you pick there will be ups and downs, and plusses and minuses.

But I can see the wisdom of keeping a foot in the door of mainstream so that there is not a sudden jolt if her intensive SALT produces a breakthrough, as ABA can do, and then mainstream beckons.

Btw, sometimes when you start asking for an expensive indie ss, suddenly appears in the full maintained unit-attached-to-mainstream that you wanted in the first place. I heard of a mum who tried for a really expensive indie ss, and the 'full' maintained ss she really liked and wanted suddenly was not full. He is now working full time and has a good social life. Bit cheeky, but if it works, don't knock it.

We are in a unit attached to mainstream and like your area there are only 2 spaces in each year. Ds spends most mornings in the unit and afternoon with his ms class. We did prefer another unit but it does seem to be working. Dual placement sounds good but I worry how he would cope with constantly missing half the work/every other letter sound/finishing off work from earlier in the week/only doing half his group's reading books etc. Which setting would be best for you if you consider all the full ones as well?

Hi Sevet exactly- our local special school does not have intensive speech therapy, in fact speech therapy diminishes in our local ss by the time the child is in year 1-2.

So I might as well look into a unit. Though they are so limited in places.

The independent special school I want DS to go to is fantastic, very intensive just what he needs. The school only goes up until the child is in year two. But they do have an upper school, if DS still is struggling in that area .

Also the head teacher of the school has agreed to a dual placement as it is doable around reception/year 1 .

But if DS attended the school full time, I'm worried they would not stretch the academic side of things as it is solely a therapeutic school.

Hi bilberry, I worried about that too, but that's why parents stressed to me that the two schools have to have very good communication with one another.

Is the intense SALT for the speech impediment? Or are we talking intense therapy for emerging verbal skills? Or both?

My first thought is that he can catch up the learning stuff, but getting the intensive SALT done while his brain is young may be an opportunity that will not be available again, but I am no expert.

Kids miss out on school for all sorts of reasons, and catch up sooner or later. My friend's kid was out of school at 5/6 years old, for a year or more with cancer, but is fully recovered and caught up in class.

The independent ss sounds hopeful. Lack of verbal skills impact on your ds learning. My ds does all his literacy and numeracy within his language unit and his reading books are chosen for their language as well as to learn reading. Asking a child 'what does one add one make?' is a language question more than a numeracy one but there is a lot of this (mental maths) in ms. I would be strongly inclined to focus on learning the basics within the intensive language environment even if he ends up slightly behind academically in year one. But your ds is not my ds and so much depends on the child.

Having seen scores of children with various issues have split placements, I would never recommend it as it never works. Noone gets communication right and the child ends up a bit of a spare part in both settings. Consistency is all and I'd go so far as to say being and belonging to one place, however mediocre, full time is better then being in a great place some of the time.

My own child was in a split placement several years ago and it was hopeless. I withdrew her and immediately got a handle on the situation and built a good relationship with those the child was with 5 days a week.

Another here who had young child go between a ms independant school and a language unit attached to a special school .
Didn't work to many inconsistencies a he felt like a spare part in both environments . In end we got his statement and he went to unit until end of year three and then went back to ms starting year three again and just continue his education in ms , with support till we moved him due to bullying . He then went into his correct year group as school we picked started at this age group.. He's doing okay here settled, happy and working hard towards his gcse .

Thanks everyone for advice.

I do understand the issues of split placement and do share most of your concerns.

This is difficult as I have had parents tell me that dual placement went really well for them, but other parents telling me the exact opposite.

It is clear that dual placements does depend on the child and both of the school settings.

So it may work for DS or not. But I guess I wouldn't really know if I try.

Ideally I would like DS to go a special unit within a mainstream, but the places go quick like candy and some boroughs do prioritise their local kids plus do I really want to wait another year to see if a new unit opens up or to see if there are more places?

I'll definitely keep my options open and visit as many schools as I can.

Have I got it right that your ds is 5 years old?

It is just that I understand it that all children are supposed to be in full time education that meets their SEN once they are 5....

How long do you have to look round schools?

Senvet, her I believe her ds is currently in a ms school but she is looking for the best option now to try and get in his statement.

Hi Sevent yes DS has just turned 5, so he is still in reception.

I went to visit a school today! Which I knew would be perfect for DS, I had that gut feeling.

They said they would offer a dual placement, but do not recommend for the dual placement to continue in year 1.

However they currently have no spaces and will have more places in September, they do have an upper school, which I've been to see already, but love I this school more.

It is an independent school though. If DS is able to get a placement in this school by September, then I would not do a dual placement.

The school is very easy to get to and I'm able to travel to the school without needing transport!

Don't know what to do, should I wait 6 months? Or should I look at other schools?

Well in my experience a parent's gut feeling is an excellent guide.
Probably still worth looking at other schools just in case.

I don't know how far ahead the Tribunal is booking at the moment, but I heard of an appeal filed last Sept with an April hearing, so if you do not yet have an appeal filed, it would be worth calling the Tribunal to find out when an appeal would be booking for of you filed it tomorrow.

In the mean time if you can afford to pay for your own therapy, lovely.

If not and you live in Kent/Sussex try the Bedgebury Foundation.

Oh and wherever you are in terms of appeal, you can ring 0808 800 4104 and asked to be allocated a trained Education Volunteer or Tribunal Volunteer to help you through the process.

Hi Sevent

Thanks for your reply. You are very knowledgeable.

Yes we will look at other schools just incase.

I contacted SOSEN previously, but they strongly advise me to get a solicitor as I qualify for legal aid. However, IPSEA has said that if I choose the solicitor route they would not represent me.

Don't know what to do as I'm so not good at representing myself.

The National Autistic Society scheme have trained Learning Volunteers will work with you, and then if you get a decision that you want to appeal, you get a trained Tribunal Volunteer to take you up to appeal.
NAS will work alongside your solicitors, to help with added questions like what to do about a new bit of evidence etc.. The HUGE advantage is that legal aid pay for independent reports, so well worth doing legal aid for that, especially as nowadays a good sensory OT as well as EP and SALT can be hugely valuable in getting a good understanding of DC.

Actually, in a few exceptional cases, lawyers at giant law firm Clifford Chance will represent, but as I understand it, you have yet to get a decision that you need to appeal, so that will all be further down the line

So the NAS helpline number is 0800 808 4104, then full steam ahead!

Get a solicitor without a doubt. They take a lot of stress off you and will guide you in the right direction as well as pay for any reports you need. My solicitor was also great to have when i rang her up in tears and was having wobbles about keeping going. She was very supportive.
I've had some crap advice off IPSEA before and would never use them again. I have had some good advice of NAS but they were slow to get hold of.

If you phone ipsea nearer to the hearing they might be able to find someone to represent you but they won't commit to it so far in advance incase they are really busy.
I qualified for legal aid and had a solicitor prepare my case and an ipsea volunteer represented me at both hearings and has supported me with liaising with the LA post hearing.
However I am aware that I was extremely lucky as the tribunal volunteer only became available a week before the hearing date!

Oh i should add that although i qualified for legal aid, i would have had to pay for the solicitor to attend the hearing as it wasn't covered. Luckily we resolved at mediation otherwise i would have had to pay for travel costs and fee's for a solicitor to travel from london up to south yorks.