bit stuck about who to ask

[2shoescreepingthroughblood]

dd goes to a sn school and all the children have cp or something like that. bar a couple they are all in wheelchairs. bar a couple they can't talk.

now my problem is what do they mean by the term
profound learning difficulties
dd is not classed in that way as she is able to learn and very "bright" but I need to know what it means.

It is what used to be referred to as 'mental handicap' if that helps.

it's weird I know she isn't classed as having "profound" learning difficulties.
but i am concerned at the percentage that have in her class. I am trying to find out more in time for my meeting with her teacher on Thursday.
I have been concerned for some time that there is no one in her class(5 including her) that she is on the same level as.
I need to push this as now she is in secondary they can mix her with the more "able" young adults(nearly said children) as she needs to be with kids like her. also there is the concern about her being "held" back.
Hope that makes sense

This is the same problem I have had with my Dauhter for the last couple of years at her SN School. (although she is only at primary)

In education they love to keep changing the names of different things. The way they describe learning difficulites is typical of this. A lot to do with stigma. For example they used to use the term 'educationally subnormal.' Anyway there are lots of different types of 'learning difficulties'. Moderate, severe, profound, complex, specific, profound and multiple, physical... Profound is generally when the pupils are working at the early levels of development, needing lots of support to learn and often learning slowly. In SN schools there are often lots of different types of learning difficulties and because all the pupils are at such an individual level the teachers work hard to teach them at that level. THis is helped by there being not so many children in a class and there being more adults.

I am sure the teachers would be happy to explain how it all works at that school and will be as keen as you are for your dd to make the best possible progress

Good luck on Thursday

the problem(to me) is that there are only 5 in her class. and if most of the others are having to learn at a slower pace(think 3 might be) then this MUST make things a bit tedious.
I am not deluding myself and thinking she is super bright. but having just heard that the class above her (yr8) are on lower p levels than her. It does concern me.
I have been voicing my concerns for the last few years. as I felt she was rather "alone" in her class. this was ok last year when a boy was in her class who was more on her "level"(he has a brain injury so although younger can "relearn" things...beware of ponds and toddlers)
I want to bring it all up as trying to make sure she is mixing with the more able secondary pupils and that he is in her class next year when he moves up.(his mum is as well)

anniebear what problems are you having?

Ds1 is classed as complex- because he's very able in some areas and very very behind in others.

Profound in ds1's school usually refers to the children who are very severely disabled- their curriculum would relate mainly too sensory stimulation.

Severe is used for children who can learn, albeit slowly iyswim. And they'll do things like reading and writing as well as sensory work/life skills etc.

it does sound a bit worrying if its all class teaching at the same level. DS1's class vary widely in abilities but they have a lot of differentiated work.

You need Christie!

fio they do the same at dd's. she used to have another girl in her class who was very bright and I felt that this helped her as she wasn't "top" and had somone to work with.
JJ it seems like all schools seem to class it differently as if dd was at that school she might have been classed as profound due to her physical disabilitys. as her school she is one of the more able. it is just so confusing,

this is the difficulty with SN schools, my mate has twin girls who have DS one has quite a few physical needs and went to a physical needs school, she was the only child in the class that could hold a pen and the only child who could talk, she has moved to my girls school which is moderate learning difficulties, they had to do a few building alterations for her, but she has come on so much, shes making mates for the first time and she is now walking so much more, mum thinks its a lot to do with her wanting to be like the other kids in her class.
can your DD move to another class? i mean we all like to be around people similar to ourselves and i think the same goes for our kids.

no she can't it is a very small school so only 5 in her year(children not classes Lol)it is a wonderful school and we wouldn't move her(did have a look at trelores but not right for her)
I am just going to try to push that she mixes with the more abale older kids.
last term she was being very naughty i am sure it is because she see's herslf as top dog lol
but she wouldn't be able to go to mainstream.

I work for a national organisation that provides all sorts of care/services for adults with disabilities. In the particular area I work in, our criteria is 'profound' learning and physical difficulties.

I would describe our average person as being unable to dress, wash, feed themselves, non ambulant, non verbal and unable to do anything for themselves. In addition they may have overlying medical conditions eg epilepsy. In short, a very vulnerable group.

That is a very broad description and not worded perfectly, but that kind of illustrates who I work with and why their condition is classed as 'profound'. Other organisations may have different terminology though.

HTH

anniediv
are they able to learn? as in reading and things like that

I suppose at the end of the day dd's school has to have ways of describing the difference so there she may not be classed as having it but some where else he might iynwim

No, they are not. Before anyone goes off on one about other people's capabilities, no, there is definitely a very slim if any chance at all that any of them could learn anything whether it be a practical skill, a word, a sign or anything remotely academic.

I do get a bit frustrated when I hear people being described as profoundly disabled when clearly they are not. For example, I have heard Stephen Hawking being described as profoundly disabled, in comparison to my people, he is not in the same universe, let alone ball park!

That's why it's important to define your criteria without putting a label on.

It's very hard.

It's interesting. DD1 is only 2 1/2 so hard to tell, but seems to be somewhere between "severe" and "profound".

Motor not too bad. Weakness down LHS. Can't use left hand. Only smiles on one side of face. Falls over.
Assorted visual problems, but gets by
Severe Epilepsy
Cognitive stationary at about 8 months. Learning very compromised - can be taught very simple things at her level, but forgets and has to be "retaught" repeatedly.
Virtually no social or communication processing.

I think that profound learning difficulties almost always result from major brain issues which lead to Epilepsy and motor problems for instance so you are often dealing with that as much as "learning" in the standard educational sense.

DD1's IEP, for instance, targets:

• sensory input from hands as well as mouth
• awareness of left side of body
• awareness of peers
• objects of reference (ie proto proto pecs)

thanks anniediv
that has sorted it for me
so dd does not have profound learning difficulties.
I didn't think she had as she picks thinks up too easy and understands too much.
I usely tell laymen that she has severe cp but is just delayed cos of this

r3dh3d, that's another interesting 'take' on it, but there is also a fairly large population of people who are as I described originally, but do have high/standard brain function but are let down physically eg after a road traffic accident or degenerative illness/infection, that has not resulted from a 'major brain issue'.

It's easy to tie yourself up in knots about it, isn't it?

I work at a sn school and our secondary pupils work in 3 groups (+ post16) ks3 'more able'( do national curriculum based work) ks4 'more able' (Asdan /national curriculum) and a ks3/4 mixed group-SLD (life skills based work).This seems work better than the mixed ability classes.

Is the school only small?Our classes are on average 10 pupils but some groups will then be spilt again over 2/3 rooms to actually work(again by abilty)

(sorry I do hate to talk about ability in this context though)

nikkie thanks but I don't understand the terms you are using

Which terms?
I mentioned our set up because it sounds more like what you are wanting for your dd.
Our more able groups are mainly high functioning autism, can read/write without symbols(mainly)but functioning at most (socially )age 8/9/10ish
Our less able group range from a boy in a wheel chair/no speech/communication/minimal interaction
to physically able/speech/basic comprehension-age 4/5 ish
ASDAN is a qualification system similar to NVQ (as in you collect evidence of certain criteria)but can be as simple as visiting a forest(with photo as evidence) to getting the public bus on your own.

thanks was having a blank moment
she doesn't fit in to any of those lol