Those of you with children with HFA - do you teach them about making conversation?

[ToffeeWhirl]

I'm just noticing more and more that DS1 (14) 'lectures' us when he talks. He is bright and funny and interesting, but I do sometimes feel a bit panic-stricken after a while because he can talk endlessly about his latest obsession. I've been wondering recently if perhaps I'm not doing him any favours by letting him talk non-stop; maybe I need to teach him that conversation should be two-way. But I don't want to hurt his feelings or make him feel that I'm not interested in what he says, because I am.

If I do try to put my own viewpoint about something, it often triggers another one of his obsessions and then he's off on a new subject and I'm wishing I'd kept my mouth shut.

Does anyone else have this issue with their child? And has anyone tried teaching them to have a conversational exchange instead of to lecture?

We are finding this work in progress too.

What helps is to have more "everyday" things to talk about that are not long term obsessions - I think it is a good way to keep one track conversation in check. So when you start going out more with ds1 there will naturally be more to talk about on plenty of different subjects.

For example ds2's current obsession is Airlines and price of flying to America. But in the course of today he went to football, so he had to think about getting ready - finding his football stuff and his jumper and his Oyster card. Then he decided to go off on his own to football as he was in such a hurry he couldn't wait for me! By the time he had finished football he was taking an interest in playing with those around him (rough and tumble sort of play in the park) chasing some smaller children and pretending to eat them etc. As the day progressed events around him meant there were different comments to make and jokes to crack.

After the pantomime he wanted to talk about that and share some thoughts/jokes with his Dad. Then he wanted to talk about what was happening tomorrow.

I suppose it is the organic way that humans evolved to communicate -they commented on what was happening around them and they needed to listen in order to learn things which would be important - like where the food was or where the predator was.

However, having said that I wonder whether teenagers or preteens are that interested in what their parents have to say - they are genuinely are much more interested in what they themselves think (because they are just formulating opinions and ideas) Certainly dd (NT) has never asked me how my day was or how I am feeling although she is interested in my opinion about some of the things which concern HER (no different from ds2 (with his ASD) But she is excellent at communicating with her friends and never monologues in the way her brothers do.

So ds1 not asking you about your day is probably normal but maybe the thing to do is just practice chatting about other stuff which is more everyday and casual to get him used to that sort of exchange.

I preface a lot of conversations with the words "we are not going to talk about planes now". Ds2 is fine with that. I always know he is in a bad mood when he starts talking about them in an obsessional way because he is almost determined to annoy me. It is really a rant not a conversation.

Sometimes I get quite interested in what he is monologuing on though and find myself monologuing back on a different tack!

I've learned that when I am talking to other people I have an almost overpowering desire to talk about what interests me - tenuously linked with what they have just said. It helps me recognise what ds2 is up against and I have to keep reacquainting myself with the "rules" of conversation - ask others about themselves, say much less that you mean to on ANY subject unless specifically requested. Leave gaps. Keep thinking about what the other person is interested in not what you are interested in.

It is hard work. Sometimes children with Asperger's/HFA appear shy - I wonder it is whether having learnt the rules it sometimes feels simpler to stop talking completely for fear of making a mistake. I think this can one of the biggest reasons for social anxiety.

It helps so much when you realise there is a simple method for conversing - find someone you have something anything in common with and stick to topics of mutual interest...

That's a really good point, Swan, that I hadn't thought of: that as DS1 starts to go out again, we should have more everyday stuff to talk about. And also, I know that, of course, muddled up with his Aspergers is teen stuff, which means he is mostly self-centred like most teens.

I like your stern, "We are not going to talk about planes now". I will remember that.

I agree that the secret is finding someone who shares your interests, whether HFA or NT. I suppose the difficulty is finding someone who shares those interests if they are a specialist area. I do dream of DS1 finding a fellow cipher obsessive at his new school, I must admit.

Georgethesecond - I take your point about kids on the spectrum needing more social modelling, but it's not always as clear cut as that because not everyone receives an early diagnosis and knows what they are dealing with. We have had several diagnoses over the years and only received a diagnosis of HFA in May: Ds1 is now 15. So, although I have often thought of him as being on the spectrum, in spite of professional opinions that said otherwise, I wasn't clear in my own mind that he needed this particular form of help. Plus we have been firefighting all sorts of other issues over the years, such as OCD, which meant social interaction was way down the list of priorities. So although it sounds like a no-brainer that kids on the spectrum need this kind of social modelling, it isn't always as straightforward as that.

Same here Polter. When your child is constantly angry and aggressive, that's your main priority. Remembering to say please and thank you is neither here nor there in comparison.

That's exactly it, Polter. When you are dealing with crisis after crisis with your child, you deal with the situation in front of you and everything else gets relegated. Actually, I am only thinking about social skills now because, finally, it looks as if DS1 will be going to a specialist school at last and I'm concerned about him making friends. He hasn't needed to improve his social skills over the past few years because he's been too anxious to go out and meet anyone.

In an ideal world, our child would receive early diagnoses with the appropriate support, so they wouldn't have mental-health crises and social skills training and any other typical ASC issues would be taught as standard, according to the individual need .

You touch on another issue I'm worrying about, Polter: self care. My DS can wipe his own bum (well, at least, I think he can and I don't wish to know if he's inept at it!), but he won't cut his nails, have baths or wash his hair. Now he's hit puberty, he often stinks. I have to cut his nails at night when he's asleep. I don't know what he's doing when he washes his hair, but it isn't working.

Also finding this thread very useful. Nothing very useful of my own to add except I can relate to virtually every word of swanhilda's post!
And as for self-care...ohhhhhh...another useful-thread-to-be....

I'm glad this thread's useful to you too, yong. The self-care issue is ongoing and I get fed up about the people who say to me, "Well, that's teenagers for you." This is on a whole other level!

Yes I can quite imagine toffee - mine's only 9 and the issue's been ongoing so I can sidestep that one....for now!!
Oh and time-management/time-telling/difficulty with even the concept of time.....that would be another 'useful thread'.....ahhhhh is it obvious I am having one of those days/weeks/years/lifetimes....

It wasn't so much of a problem until he hit puberty, yong. You have all that to come .

My DS1 has NO concept of time and still couldn't tell the time at nine. He struggles to remember important dates too, including his own birthday. When he woke up on his birthday this year, he came down as usual and we had this conversation:

Me: "Do you know what day it is?"
DS1: "No."
Me: "It's 20th October."
DS1: "Oh."
Me: "Do you know what's special about that day?"
DS1: "Nope."
Me: "It's your birthday!"
DS1: "Oh!"

Yes, ok, Polter. Will do.

No worries ToffeeWhirl - we'll move this for you now.

Thanks, Kate.

As usual, this evening a family discussion with DS1 ended with him storming out, accusing us all of 'not understanding logic'. The discussion was about belief in God and the afterlife. DS1 said you couldn't prove the afterlife existed and my younger son said you couldn't prove that it didn't. DH said they were both right, which infuriated DS1 who said it was impossible for both to be right. Then I said that belief in God was a matter of faith, not logic, but DS1 became very cross at that and left the room.

It is difficult to have an enjoyable conversation with him about topics because he gets so angry with us.

Later, I suggested to him that conversations with us should be about connecting rather than scoring points, but he dismissed me.

There are quite a few topics that I avoid discussing with him now because they trigger such angry outbursts from him and always end badly . How on earth does one deal with this? I worry about him not 'getting' that this will alienate him from people.

My brother who is 42 and very sociable and as far as know NT has conversations like that with me...or at least he would but I never let him get that far. He plies me with Richard Dawkins books. He is refusing to let his babies be Christened much to the sadness of his parents in law.

I think some people do get very passionate about their beliefs, whether it is atheists or fundamentalists and want other people to agree with them. I think other people have very strong opinions in adolescence and early twenties which tend to get replaced by wisdom and the ability to hold two differing views in balance in their minds. I remember having an extraordinarily heated argument with my Granny (who was not an argumentative person) about the fact that DH Lawrence was far superior to Jane Austen. Afterwards my cousin (same age) said to me, really you were out of order - whatever you thought you should have deferred to her. But being 15 I was sure I was RIGHT.

It sounds like a Star Trek movie might be a good place to start - I think Doctor Spock often goes through these emotional journeys contrasting faith and logic and reconciling them.

It also sounds like your ds would be a brilliant debater and needs to be with others who like discussing things which are of passionate interest. Sometimes families aren't the best mix - personally I cannot bear having heated arguments over meals and politics and religion in this house always always end badly. Even with my parents I find it an unsavoury topic for discussion - everyone always gets cross. But when you are a teenager that is exactly what you WANT to thrash out.

Maybe he just wants to air his opinions and not be challenged at this stage - after all his opinions are only just formed. I think the next stage is when you start noticing other points of view not because they are formally presented to you but because there is evidence in the way that people live or act. Or you read a book or watch a film which inspires you to a new version of "the truth".

And also of course he will begin to painfully and slowly observe that always arguing he is right begins to pall and that is a lesson in itself.

My brother who is 42 and very sociable and as far as know NT has conversations like that with me...or at least he would but I never let him get that far. He plies me with Richard Dawkins books. He is refusing to let his babies be Christened much to the sadness of his parents in law.

I think some people do get very passionate about their beliefs, whether it is atheists or fundamentalists and want other people to agree with them. I think other people have very strong opinions in adolescence and early twenties which tend to get replaced by wisdom and the ability to hold two differing views in balance in their minds. I remember having an extraordinarily heated argument with my Granny (who was not an argumentative person) about the fact that DH Lawrence was far superior to Jane Austen. Afterwards my cousin (same age) said to me, really you were out of order - whatever you thought you should have deferred to her. But being 15 I was sure I was RIGHT.

It sounds like a Star Trek movie might be a good place to start - I think Doctor Spock often goes through these emotional journeys contrasting faith and logic and reconciling them.

It also sounds like your ds would be a brilliant debater and needs to be with others who like discussing things which are of passionate interest. Sometimes families aren't the best mix - personally I cannot bear having heated arguments over meals and politics and religion in this house always always end badly. Even with my parents I find it an unsavoury topic for discussion - everyone always gets cross. But when you are a teenager that is exactly what you WANT to thrash out.

Maybe he just wants to air his opinions and not be challenged at this stage - after all his opinions are only just formed. I think the next stage is when you start noticing other points of view not because they are formally presented to you but because there is evidence in the way that people live or act. Or you read a book or watch a film which inspires you to a new version of "the truth".

And also of course he will begin to painfully and slowly observe that always arguing he is right begins to pall and that is a lesson in itself.

My brother who is 42 and very sociable and as far as know NT has conversations like that with me...or at least he would but I never let him get that far. He plies me with Richard Dawkins books. He is refusing to let his babies be Christened much to the sadness of his parents in law.

I think some people do get very passionate about their beliefs, whether it is atheists or fundamentalists and want other people to agree with them. I think other people have very strong opinions in adolescence and early twenties which tend to get replaced by wisdom and the ability to hold two differing views in balance in their minds. I remember having an extraordinarily heated argument with my Granny (who was not an argumentative person) about the fact that DH Lawrence was far superior to Jane Austen. Afterwards my cousin (same age) said to me, really you were out of order - whatever you thought you should have deferred to her. But being 15 I was sure I was RIGHT.

It sounds like a Star Trek movie might be a good place to start - I think Doctor Spock often goes through these emotional journeys contrasting faith and logic and reconciling them.

It also sounds like your ds would be a brilliant debater and needs to be with others who like discussing things which are of passionate interest. Sometimes families aren't the best mix - personally I cannot bear having heated arguments over meals and politics and religion in this house always always end badly. Even with my parents I find it an unsavoury topic for discussion - everyone always gets cross. But when you are a teenager that is exactly what you WANT to thrash out.

Maybe he just wants to air his opinions and not be challenged at this stage - after all his opinions are only just formed. I think the next stage is when you start noticing other points of view not because they are formally presented to you but because there is evidence in the way that people live or act. Or you read a book or watch a film which inspires you to a new version of "the truth".

And also of course he will begin to painfully and slowly observe that always arguing he is right begins to pall and that is a lesson in itself.

My brother who is 42 and very sociable and as far as know NT has conversations like that with me...or at least he would but I never let him get that far. He plies me with Richard Dawkins books. He is refusing to let his babies be Christened much to the sadness of his parents in law.

I think some people do get very passionate about their beliefs, whether it is atheists or fundamentalists and want other people to agree with them. I think other people have very strong opinions in adolescence and early twenties which tend to get replaced by wisdom and the ability to hold two differing views in balance in their minds. I remember having an extraordinarily heated argument with my Granny (who was not an argumentative person) about the fact that DH Lawrence was far superior to Jane Austen. Afterwards my cousin (same age) said to me, really you were out of order - whatever you thought you should have deferred to her. But being 15 I was sure I was RIGHT.

It sounds like a Star Trek movie might be a good place to start - I think Doctor Spock often goes through these emotional journeys contrasting faith and logic and reconciling them.

It also sounds like your ds would be a brilliant debater and needs to be with others who like discussing things which are of passionate interest. Sometimes families aren't the best mix - personally I cannot bear having heated arguments over meals and politics and religion in this house always always end badly. Even with my parents I find it an unsavoury topic for discussion - everyone always gets cross. But when you are a teenager that is exactly what you WANT to thrash out.

Maybe he just wants to air his opinions and not be challenged at this stage - after all his opinions are only just formed. I think the next stage is when you start noticing other points of view not because they are formally presented to you but because there is evidence in the way that people live or act. Or you read a book or watch a film which inspires you to a new version of "the truth".

And also of course he will begin to painfully and slowly observe that always arguing he is right begins to pall and that is a lesson in itself.

My brother who is 42 and very sociable and as far as know NT has conversations like that with me...or at least he would but I never let him get that far. He plies me with Richard Dawkins books. He is refusing to let his babies be Christened much to the sadness of his parents in law.

I think some people do get very passionate about their beliefs, whether it is atheists or fundamentalists and want other people to agree with them. I think other people have very strong opinions in adolescence and early twenties which tend to get replaced by wisdom and the ability to hold two differing views in balance in their minds. I remember having an extraordinarily heated argument with my Granny (who was not an argumentative person) about the fact that DH Lawrence was far superior to Jane Austen. Afterwards my cousin (same age) said to me, really you were out of order - whatever you thought you should have deferred to her. But being 15 I was sure I was RIGHT.

It sounds like a Star Trek movie might be a good place to start - I think Doctor Spock often goes through these emotional journeys contrasting faith and logic and reconciling them.

It also sounds like your ds would be a brilliant debater and needs to be with others who like discussing things which are of passionate interest. Sometimes families aren't the best mix - personally I cannot bear having heated arguments over meals and politics and religion in this house always always end badly. Even with my parents I find it an unsavoury topic for discussion - everyone always gets cross. But when you are a teenager that is exactly what you WANT to thrash out.

Maybe he just wants to air his opinions and not be challenged at this stage - after all his opinions are only just formed. I think the next stage is when you start noticing other points of view not because they are formally presented to you but because there is evidence in the way that people live or act. Or you read a book or watch a film which inspires you to a new version of "the truth".

And also of course he will begin to painfully and slowly observe that always arguing he is right begins to pall and that is a lesson in itself.

My brother who is 42 and very sociable and as far as know NT has conversations like that with me...or at least he would but I never let him get that far. He plies me with Richard Dawkins books. He is refusing to let his babies be Christened much to the sadness of his parents in law.

I think some people do get very passionate about their beliefs, whether it is atheists or fundamentalists and want other people to agree with them. I think other people have very strong opinions in adolescence and early twenties which tend to get replaced by wisdom and the ability to hold two differing views in balance in their minds. I remember having an extraordinarily heated argument with my Granny (who was not an argumentative person) about the fact that DH Lawrence was far superior to Jane Austen. Afterwards my cousin (same age) said to me, really you were out of order - whatever you thought you should have deferred to her. But being 15 I was sure I was RIGHT.

It sounds like a Star Trek movie might be a good place to start - I think Doctor Spock often goes through these emotional journeys contrasting faith and logic and reconciling them.

It also sounds like your ds would be a brilliant debater and needs to be with others who like discussing things which are of passionate interest. Sometimes families aren't the best mix - personally I cannot bear having heated arguments over meals and politics and religion in this house always always end badly. Even with my parents I find it an unsavoury topic for discussion - everyone always gets cross. But when you are a teenager that is exactly what you WANT to thrash out.

Maybe he just wants to air his opinions and not be challenged at this stage - after all his opinions are only just formed. I think the next stage is when you start noticing other points of view not because they are formally presented to you but because there is evidence in the way that people live or act. Or you read a book or watch a film which inspires you to a new version of "the truth".

And also of course he will begin to painfully and slowly observe that always arguing he is right begins to pall and that is a lesson in itself.

Yes, you're right, Swan, and I certainly remember being similarly passionate and argumentative in my teens (I really do seem to have lost that over the years). You're right that DS1 needs to be with others who enjoy debating, but also with an authority figure who will rein him in when he gets too heated. I hope this might happen at school, if / when he ever gets there.

And yes, maybe he doesn't want to be challenged. Perhaps I should just let him talk rather than try to get him to listen to me.

But now there are certain subjects that I can't discuss with him because he gets so angry and that saddens me. Maybe it is just a matter of immaturity though.

oh dear, just logged on again this evening to find I posted that message 6 times - ranting is clearly in my genes the computer mouse went funny yesterday and I logged out when it died not noticing

Try making use of social stories.
Should be effective in eliminating different kinds of socially inappropriate behaviors.