Is this LEA bullying my friend?

[cantberight]

I've NC for this as I don't want my friend to be identified given the circumstances.

A friend of mine has a 3 year old with autism. Now I don't know much about this other than she really has a hard time coping and her DH isn't very supportive (seems he is in complete denial which doesn't help matters). She also has a younger baby. Her child didn't talk until about 3 months ago when they started this home behavioural programme. They started working on his language and now he is starting to talk, which my friend is thrilled about. (although she is still confused as to why the speech therapist is still insisting he uses pictures to communicate?)

Because she doesn't speak English very well, I help her out by attending meetings, etc with her. Last week we had a meeting with her child's doctor, early years coordinator, nursery manager, and behavioural tutor. A few months ago my friend applied for a SEN nursery as she believed that would be best for her son. Given the progress he has made over the last few months, she no longer thinks this is appropriate. Her behavioural tutor agrees with her. When she mentioned this in the meeting she was told that if she gives up the SEN nursery place, she won't be able to get it back if she later changes her mind. She was also told she will not likely get 15 hours of 1:1 support on her statement (from what I understand she is still waiting for this to be finalized), and would likely get 10 hours. She was told that if she takes up 3 sessions at this SEN nursery it would use up any 1:1 hours she gets on her statement (which I can't understand since it has yet to be issued), and therefore any remaining hours would have to be used in a "setting of her choice" (i.e. mainstream) but with no 1:1 support. She believes her child would be better off in a mainstream nursery with full time 1:1, but they were adamant that if she did this "there is no turning back". Is this correct? She is now feeling like she should take up the SEN placement even though she knows it isn't right because she fears she could be wrong and if so won't be able to get it back. I believe this statement cannot possibly be factual and in fact is a bullying tactic. Am I correct?

I have no qualifications to say what her child needs, but her behavioural support are also advising that she does not take up the SEN placement and instead put her child in a mainstream nursery and they will provide support (they have a nursery in mind who will accommodate this). Why then would the LEA argue this?

Sorry for the long thread, can anyone shed any insight on this issue?

I just lost a long post.

No, they are just telling it how it is. SN nursery places are very limited and more people want them than the number of places they have. If she turns it down someone else will take it.

It's easier to make a SN/MS move then to get a MS/SN move.

They are just being honest, SN placements are like gold dust.

I must admit I am confused as to why at 3 years old, having been speaking for only 3 months, your friend feels he no longer requires such a specialist placement.

I do think it's worth barinbearing in mind that the people advising her to give up the placement have a vested interest in her doing so, if they would then be contracted to be the child's support in a ms nursery.

To give a context, dd1 was verbal, really quite verbal at 2 years 6 months. She'd been speaking since quite a typical age to start speaking (can't remember now, but she had hundreds of words by then). She was deemed 'severely delayed in expressive/receptive speech/language at 4
0 when her statement assessment was drawn up and is now 'delayed in line with her cognitive profile'. I.e. She's at about 4 year old level at 8.7 but she's cognitively about 4 so they're not seeing it as a particular problem.

That's after 4 years at a special school with a tailored S/l programme.

I wouldn't give up a placement based on 3 months of emerging speech, tbh.

I think if your friend has a place at an SN nursery she should grab it with both hands. They are so hard to get.

If her DS goes to the SN nursery and it doesn't suit him, he won't lose out by transferring to mainstream later. If on the other hand he goes into mainstream and it doesn't suit him, the consequences can be awful, for both him and her. And it is SO HARD to get a place that they may have to wait months or years for another.

Mainstream can be incredibly overwhelming for a child with ASD, and they rarely get support or allowances made. Read through a few threads on here and you'll see what it's like if it's not working.

The right people and the right support will make all the difference, the wrong people will set him back and isolate him.

Speech is only a tiny part of the whole picture. DS1 is verbal and highly intelligent and mainstream was hell for him, and his mental health suffered, but we had no other options for him where he would have a suitable peer group. He is now in specialist provision, but it took several years of planning and discussion and a potential appeal to get him in there. And we had an easy ride of it, compared with many.

He was talking at 3, but not really communicating, just labelling things. He was also selectively mute. He rarely spoke to anyone at nursery. SALT used PECS (picture cards) to get him used to the idea of requesting and making choices and to support his communication. I was dubious about it, at the time, but it did make a difference to him, as well as helping nursery staff to communicate with him in a way that he could understand clearly.

DS is in mainstream as part of a full time ABA programme. In effect he has a specialist education but part of it takes place in mainstream (and part in 1:1 at home / at the ABA provider office). It works well and is better option for him than SS as there are no asd SS or units here (he was refused place at SS nursery at 2 as deemed too bright but really it was just to gatekeep places, they offered SS a few years later by which time it wasn't suitable as he had made too much progress and would not have had peer group of same ability there)

I would say that yes it is bullying because it's not the full story. You have a legal right to mainstream instead of SS and the LA must put in the support necessary to make mainstream work. The difficulty is unless you have tried and failed in mainstream with LA services and / or SS few LAs will jump to mainstream with ABA without a battle / tribunal.

So in reality the choice initially is SS nursery or 15 hours mainstream nursery with perhaps 10 hours 1:1. You will most likely have to appeal / go to tribunal for more.

ABA yahoo site is good to ask for experiences of your LA. Some will negotiate on ABA and some won't. Your friend will have to argue ABA is the necessary step to exercising right to mainstream. It can be a long and expensive battle. Under the sen changes she can ask for personal budget so take the cost of SS and ask to use it for ABA in mainstream. But LAs don't have to agree.

DS ABA provider is very pro mainstream and DS is academically able enough to be there. He does have all the language problems other people describe here but that is addressed by skilled ABA staff breaking down and differentiating the work for him. He has almost caught up in maths, his reading and spelling is age appropriate and his writing is behind but not dramatically so, he's not the least able child in the class. Even in mainstream the ability range these days is vast. For social skills etc the pool of children in mainstream is great, he has limited social interest (but that's the same with the asd kids he sees at ABA provider), but the children are good with him and persistent. He has learnt to copy them and follows what they do when he's unsure.

DS could not be in mainstream without ABA, because mainstream teachers and TAs do not have enough time or training to know how to teach him. They rely hugely on ABA supervisor to do lots of it (social language, behaviour, life skills) and they just provide teaching for literacy, maths etc (even then they need help in adjusting it). Mainstream without ABA would be miserable, but with ABA he is doing well. He has built up time slowly and still doesn't go full time, this avoids it being overwhelming. He also does some 1:1 pull outs during school day but only 15 mins a few times a week now, mostly when he's in school he's in the class. But the great thing about having ABA staff in school is it's completely individualised to him.

If your friend gets full time 1:1 in mainstream (ABA or not ABA) that is more expensive than SS place usually (unless big transport costs to SS). So if later wanted to switch to SS then there is a good chance that would be possible. Not all SS nurseries are full, here one SS didn't have a child under 7 in it when we looked round (it can take them from 2) because of the gatekeeping.

Far more children move from mainstream to SS than the other way. Here they pour in at 8+ often having made zero progress in mainstream with poor provision or unmanageable behaviour. She may not be able to get a place within a few weeks or months if she changes her mind but usually you can in the medium term. It is variable by area. If it's cheaper than the alternative places have a habit of becoming available. It sounds like they are using it to put pressure on her. Probably because they know she is doing ABA and don't want the expense of that.

Many LAs will refuse full time 1:1 in mainstream, you just have to appeal. Here the only children who get proper provision are those whose parents appeal. Our LA offered 75% 1:1 in mainstream but backed down and gave 100% as soon as we lodged the appeal. then we had to appeal again to get ABA on the statement. For that we had to go to tribunal.

If she trusts her ABA provider and they are advising mainstream then she should give it a go, but expect to have to fight for it. Some ABA providers work a lot in mainstream and make it a success.

Our ABA provider I suppose had a vested interest but it's actually part of their philosophy for every child to be in mainstream if possible so I didn't feel like the advice was due to any self interest on their part. Other non ABA approaches eg SCERTS also recommend children go to mainstream / mix with typically dev children as part of their philosophy. Our ABA provider also works in some SS but it's harder to get ABA in there than mainstream.

Sorry that's so long. Just wanted to say with the right support it can work in mainstream - but getting the right support is very hard.