Is this a punishment?

[claw2]

Had an email from ds's TA, stating that ds refused to do math work today as he said it was boring. He will miss playtime on Friday and be asked to do the work again. If this 'proves difficult', they will send it home for me to do with him!

I asked ds why he refused and he says TA wanted him to write the exact same thing 3 times. He wrote it twice, then refused to do it again.

So either a) ds's handwriting wasn't good enough or b) ds wasn't in fact asked to write the exact same thing and just has not understood what he is writing or c) ds found the work/handwriting too difficult

Either way its a punishment, for something he finds difficult?

Might be quite interesting if it is sent home because then you can see whether the issue is that the work is too boring or too difficult. We have had problems when teachers haven't explained why they are setting a task and ds2 has decided it is beneath him because he did a similar task years ago without realising they are teaching it a more advanced level. On the other hand he will also frequently refuse to do Literacy tasks because he finds it very difficult to write from someone else's view point or infer things. He is also quite capable of being bolshy for the fun of it so sometimes the ten minute sanction is justified for him. As Polter says working on more detailed responses to why the work has not been done might help .

I wouldn't see that as a punishment, although I'd question why a problem on Wednesday was being left until Friday to deal with.

Handwriting is something that ds finds difficult, at the best at times. As he finds it difficult, he has little motivation to write. He thought he was being asked to write the exact same thing three times and had no motivation to do so.

Ds also has extremely low self esteem and already refers to school as 'hell' and feels 'bullied' by staff and suicidal again. I struggle to get him to school most mornings.

I do not feel that ds missing playtime is going to help matters. I feel it will just aid in reinforcing his negative views of school and staff.

At home when ds refuses to do something, I use positive reinforcement, motivation and language. If I use negative reinforcement, it just escalates the situation.

For example, if ds is refusing to get dressed in the morning, not doing what I have asked is never an option. However, I give ds the choice of socks or pants on first, this way 'no' is not an option. With the reward of being able to watch TV before school if he can do so quickly.

Then I wonder if its me that is making life so difficult for ds, im not being down on myself. But it is becoming very clear, that the rest of the world wont deal with ds the same way as I do. Maybe he does have to 'toughen up'.

Left to Friday, as school trip today. Then will be prolonged to Monday, as he will then bring it home.

Probably school are trying to defuse situation whilst ensuring that your ds knows he must do his work. If he is getting stubborn and distressed saying he won't do his work, they may well say 'later then' as this gives him time to calm down, but he still needs to complete the task. he has support from TA and I guess they know he can do it. I would be supportive of this and maybe quite matter of fact about it. I suppose the question to ask yourself is what will happen if ds isn't made to do this work? maybe nothing or maybe he will begin to refuse to do more school related things and you will be back to square 1. I know you have had lots of issues with your ds and getting him back to school so may well think I am talking crap, but my gut feeling is that you need to step back and let this happen.

Cansu, you are not talking crap at all. That is my instinct to step back and let them see for themselves, if their methods work or don't. Im not suggesting that ds be allowed to refuse to do anything, just there are ways are getting him to comply and ways that will just make matters worse.

It seems they are treating him as 'normal' and in many ways he is 'normal', he needs firm boundaries, he needs assertiveness. Just thought they would have learnt by now, that being negative, when ds is being negative, doesn't end well and just escalates his negative feelings.

If your DS has a 1:1 TA then his work should be individualised for him, therefore they should know how to motivate him. If your DS can't see the point in doing the work because it is boring, then they should really adapt the work so he does see the point and is motivated. Ie. relate it to his interests.
As they say,' if a child isn't learning, the teacher isn't teaching.

"If your DS can't see the point in doing the work because it is boring, then they should really adapt the work so he does see the point and is motivated. Ie. relate it to his interests."

Yes, in terms of behaviourism, but it's not an ABA centre. It's a school. They expect children to do what is asked of them by the teacher. Being bored isn't a good reason not to do the work (in terms of school life, I mean. Being bored is a perfectly good reason why a child may not do the work from a behavioural point of view). I agree that motivation should be given, but I don't know that Claw can expect this school to change the work to suit DS's interests.

Okay, but as a teacher, I always differentiate my work to meet the individual needs of the children as much as possible and in the case of a child who has a 1:1 this is even more attainable.
I always endeavour to instil a 'love of learning' into the children I teach (despite the political hoops we have to jump through) . If a child is bored, they will switch off, if a child is motivated, they will learn. Call it whatever, but teachers are actually supposed to differentiate in order to engage the learner. (And just as an aside, people are always talking about how ABA should be used in schools but now when I mention 'motivation' I am told school is not a behaviour centre??!)
Anyhow, to be fair, I don't know much about OP's school and situation but my opinion stands that if a child is bored, they will not learn. I have witnessed it too many times unfortunately.

I'm not criticising your points at all. I agree with them. But I'm also very aware of the fight and sacrifice that Claw made to get her DS to this school and if she tries to get them to individualise every piece of work all the time to prevent boredom, they are likely to say they can't meet need.

You know your son best and how he reacts and what are the best approaches, after all you have to manage all this everyday. It would be a lot easier if schools listened to what we try to tell them. Your son's mental health is paramount and they can't afford to keep getting things wrong.

Could you try putting in writing some alternative things that they should try saying to him? I don't know if they will take any notice, but if you say what approach you finds works best, down to giving them example phrases / sentences of what to say to DS.

If you have to do the work at home with DS, can you tell them what approach you used to get any results, again giving some sample phrasing that they could try to use?

hugs and kisses xxx

Lougle I don't think it was boredom, I think ds found it difficult and had no motivation hence why he called it bored.

He struggles with handwriting, letter formation etc, hypermobility and poor fine motor skill and was being asked to write the same thing 3 times.

Now yesterday he came home from school, very angry, throwing his school bag, saying he is never going back and if I make him he will punch everyone, couldn't sleep etc.

Today is the day he will miss playtime and be asked to write the thing 3 times again. I will struggle to get him to school today.

All of this could have been avoided, if they simply changed the language they use with him and used positive reinforcement.

It's hard to know at this stage, though, isn't it? If it was maths work I imagine (and may be wrong) that it was not a paragraph of text.

Have they given you any detail of what the work was, what they did to encourage your DS to do it, what strategies they tried?

Without any of that I'm not sure that you can conclude that your DS found it hard, that they didn't use positive language, that they didn't try and use positive reinforcement, etc.

I do think it's important to remember children do have times when they are less motivated to do what is asked of them regardless of any disability and if they are in a school the teacher will expect them to do the work set.

By all means investigate what approach was taken, but have it in the back of your mind that the school may not be simply punishing your DS for finding his work hard.

You are quite right Lougle I do not know, only hearing ds's side of the story, which can be a bit skewed. Apparently he was writing roman numerals 1- 10 and was asked to write them 3 times (according to ds). It is quite possible that he actually wasn't asked to do this and has not understood what he has been asked to do. Which was kinda my point.

IF ds is right and this is what he was asked to do, I can see why he would have found it difficult, they are quite detailed and similar and require use of fine motor skills and also good vision ie tracking and focus (which ds doesn't have)

IF ds wasn't asked to do this, then he clearly hasn't understood what he was being asked to do.

More to the point, I can just see this spiralling out of control again. As ds's main difficult which is very severe and is totally unrelated to math or handwriting is he has absolutely no concept of what motivates others to do what they do. He constantly feels 'bullied' and if everyone in school is being 'mean' to him and out to get him. This makes him feel extremely distressed and suicidal.

School are finally aware of this and SALT is working on this. However, I think school and I need to establish how they deal with this, while working on improving his skills.

To me it just seems inappropriate to make a child, who already feels bullied and as if staff are being mean to him and constantly persecuted by them, resulting in him feeling suicidal to miss a playtime etc. I am sure there are other ways they could deal with it, without reinforcing his extreme negative feelings.

Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes total sense. I can see that roman numerals would probably be quite abstract and make no sense as a task to your DS.

It sounds like he needs some work done on how to tell someone he's struggling. I'm sure you're throwing your hands up in the air as you read this though, because I'm sure you've been working on that forever and you're no further forwards.

Do you think this school isn't specialist enough for your DS? I recall that it's a MS school that happens to have SALT/OT provision and claimed to know about ASD, is that right?

It's hard to know though, when a child genuinely can't do something and when they just don't feel like it, especially if you're not the child's parent, I guess.

Yes Lougle that is correct, it is so difficult for me to know where is the best place for him. Academically he is very high functioning (although ds doesn't think this, he thinks he is 'rubbish' etc) Special schools around here, specialise in children with severe learning/ challenging behavioural difficulties. Although ds's difficulties are severe in certain aspects. Superficially, he presents as academically very able, very social, extremely compliant, language - no difficulties and extremely high functioning, which he is in many respects.

However, we always face the same barrier, ds just has no concept of other people and this causes him major difficulties and extreme distress, maybe where he is so high functioning ie he is able to try and apply logic to his interactions, but always reaches the wrong conclusion.

I thought considering he is very high functioning in so many areas, particularly his understanding, this would be fairly straight forward to improve on. But the fact he is high functioning, is proving to be a major barrier, in the respect of school think he is capable of so much more and treat him as such.

Also professional input ie OT, SALT, counsellor, which is on site, is very much what school report based. So if school are not recognising difficulties, they are not report them and professionals are thinking what the hell is mum talking about!

Polter they would look at me, as if I were mad. Ds has language which he is more than capable of using. They just don't seem to be getting the hang of it. Ds is either extreme in the use of it, 'abusive' 'blackmail' or extremely generally 'fine'. Its emotional based vocab, ds struggles with.

However, try telling school, OT, SALT, counsellor and its as if Im speaking a foreign language, as school report 'fine'!

Just checked emails they have sent the work home with ds as he 'did not wish to do it during playtime' and 'we would like to see the completed work on Monday'. I will check his book bag.

Im just thinking great! I have OT therapy to do with ds every hour at home, SALT work to do with ds at home and deal with him when he storms through the door, angry, upset and threatening hurt everyone in school and to throw himself out of windows if I send him to 'hell' again! As well as menu planning to get him to eat, no sleeping (with medication)

So school wind him up, send him home for me to patch up and send back the next day. WTF are OT, SALT and counsellor doing in school

I also note that TA is not copying OT, SALT or counsellor into his emails. For me, im looking for triggers to his suicidal thoughts, behaviours etc. No professionals are copied into TA's emails.

I agree with Polter. Sometimes the uncomfortable truth is that there is no school that is ideal for a child so you have to go with best fit.

You sound miserable. Truly. He sounds miserable.

For me, with DD2, I had to weigh up how much of my time I could spend trying to convince 'professionals' of DD's issues and whether that time would be better spent just sorting her out myself. I couldn't sort her out while she was at school because 80% of her issues were to do with the school day/life.

I think you need to look at what educational setting will allow your DS's mental health to survive his childhood.

What you can't do, which is what I was clumsily trying to point out in earlier posts, is send him to a school and then undermine that school's position by vetoing anything that challenges him in any way.

Polter yes a year this month. I agree its ds's emotional needs that need to take priority.

Lougle Ds is miserable, not all the time, but totally miserable about school all the time. Once at home, calmed down and distracted he is fine until bedtime, then starts worrying about next day.

Yes I agree, I either have to make the best of what I have or make alternative arrangements. Home schooling is looking like the best option.

I looked at the math work and ds said he wasnt going to do it as he found it confusing. However ds did it in 5 minutes, once explained, no problems at all. I asked ds why he had refused to do it in school, as he clearly had no difficulties doing it at home.

Ds told me the work they sent home, wasn't the same work he was being asked to do in school. He says in school he was being asked to write roman numerals 1- 10, 3 times over. He also told me that they were trying to make him look like a 'liar' for sending home different work (not sure how true that is, just how untrusting of school ds is)

Ds surprised me, by knowing how to write roman numerals 1- 100 once I explained the rules and pattern to him.

It's so difficult. From school's point of view, it sounds really reasonable. It's just

I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X

So a series of lines/diagonals.

But something made that seem very hard to your DS. That's the problem.

The problem seems to be ds did not understand why he had to copy it, especially 3 times. It seems rather than explain, he was just told to comply.

The work they sent home was not writing it 3 times. It was numbers 1 - 10 asking to convert to roman numerals. Then certain random numbers up to 100 converting to roman numerals.

Initially ds said he was confused and didn't know what to do. I explained that each letter represented a number and the pattern, gave 2 written examples.

Ds could then tell me any given number in roman numerals from 1 - 399, within seconds off the top of his head.

Im baffled by the whole writing it 3 times thing too!