Tribunal- extra evidence deadline

[cardboardcactus]

Need a bit of advice please. Our deadline for submitting extra evidence for our refusal to assess appeal tribunal is looming. Would really like to re-draft my 'reasons for appeal' section- can I do this and ask for it to replace/be added to the existing one that they have?

Also, I want to give an account of correspondence between me and LA since their refusal- should I just include the correspondence or also summarise the key points to highlight my 'issues' with what they've said. And should this be added to the 'reasons for appeal' blurb or separately?

One other question - I have hordes of emails between the school and me. Should I include these only if they are relevant to a key point I refer to elsewhere or should I just include them anyway in case I want to refer to anything in them at the tribunal, maybe in response to a question? I don't want key arguments to be buried under mountains of less relevant paperwork but I realise if it's not in the bundle you can't refer to it- I think that's right isn't it?

You can send all the paperwork but then bullet point the key points/messages.

Be careful that you are arguing about what the judge has jurisdiction over. He/she will not order an assessment on the basis that the LA are arseholes or rude in their communication, only on the FACT that your child 'probably' needs a statement.

We did a page called Additional evidence for our tribunal, actually it was about 12 pages! We included our responses to the LA stuff and anything additional which we wanted to say on top of the orignal appeal.

Everything was in the bundle and I did get the feeling from the panel that they had looked at it in depth.

Good luck

You can do a chronology of the correspondence if you want to cut it down, that way the points are in and if disputed you can always give more evidence on day. If they have been arseholes it doesn't hurt to show this.

I think people quite often put in a case statement at the evidence stage updating the tribunal and answering what is in the response. Try to prune the emails, they won't appreciate having forests of paperwork.

Thanks all. When I wrote my reasons for appeal I didn't number the paragraphs as you're supposed to so I'd like to re-do all of it, adding some more stuff while I'm at it. Will they just add that to the previous version? There'll be a lot of repetition...
I'd like to include emails where I contacted the school about school refusal, how unhappy he was, bullying, etc. Do you think I should just enclose the email printouts, or also write a sort of account of why I'm including them?

I would write why you are including them in your additional evidence and appendix them.

There was loads of repetition in mine but it didnt seem to matter. I included evidence that the the LA had included but I was looking at it from a different perspective so I included it.

I found the panel to be extremely understanding, they know we are not lawyers, we are parents trying to muddle through a complicated process.

I had an advocate to help me, do you have someone??

No advocate with us, was in touch with ipsea but they couldn't provide anyone. So it will be just us! Eek!

I did include all the emails so that every angle has been covered. ive done the best I can and did do a case statement which really was very lengthy but again as im just a mum I wanted to make sure that the panel had all the evidence and im glad I did now as my LA have not included a single email between us in their evidence bundle. I was concerned about overloading the panel but took the view too much was better than too little plus they may be more forgiving of me as im just a mum. I didn't number the paragraphs in this tribunal - again im hopng the tribunal will be forgiving as im just a mum. have to say my bundle is much better than the LA plus my evidence is 4 x that of the LAs

this time as well the LA haven't got a legal person either just the sen officer. I think you just have to do the best you can and don't beat yourself up too much about it being perfect cos at the end of the day we are not legal peeps

Thanks bjk. Yes I'm hoping that any lack of legal slickness will be forgiven! Ineed- that's reassuring that you found the panel to be understanding. You hear the opposite most of the time.

I did a part 2 3 and 4 appeal last year with no legal help - LA had a solicitor and a barrister and I won an indie placement so it can be done. I found the panel to be very forgiving as we weren't represented and the LA were. doing it again in about 11 days for a refusal to assess and again doing it all by myself - with the support of people on here. the tribunal itself is by far the easiest part (although doesn't feel like that at the time) the worse part is worrying about everything and if we are doing it right and trying to second guess everything . you can only do your best and tribunal panels are aware at just how much of their heart and soul parents put into the tribunals and how much the LA play the game. but you have to bring it back to the basics - very easy to get sidelined by what the LA d0 - im finding im doing that on an hourly basis!!! but need to remember the tribunal will rule according to the law so make sure your case/evidence shows that your child does indeed probably need a statement and try not to get drawn into the LA bad behaviour (says me!!! ) at my last hearing the LA tried to mud sling at me but I just sat there and did not retaliate - the LA then looked very bad as there was no evidence for the things they were saying and was a clear tactic to rile me. I found the more I sat there with the LA and said nothing the more it upset them

Thanks that's so encouraging to hear. It feels quite a daunting prospect without any representative. Are you taking witnesses to your refusal to assess hearing?

was just asking coz we're not and that also makes me feels a bit insecure.

im not card - ive got reports and have evidence to show she isn't making progress. LA are just using their sen officer and trying to call the senco who has now said she cant go so im fighting against it being adjourned as the hearing now about 11 days away. my LA don't have a single report against me ie no EP report so will be interesting to see what they say. so many refusals don't make it to the actual hearing - I always knew mine would as its a bit personal against me for winning last year with her brother so im being put in my place so to speak.

if we win the refusal and if we get a statement im expecting another appeal at some point so decided to say my funds for the next tribunal as theres more at stake as far as the LA is concerned.

I found at the actual hearing itself I said very little - the tribunal led it all and asked all the killer questions to the LA. just be prepared to make an opening statement and a closing statement . on the day I had something prepared but was asked to do an opening one. when it came to the closing one I just ignored what I had wrote and spoke from the heart and I think that actually helped as it showed that I was just a concerned mum.

Thanks bjk, that's so helpful. It's just so crazy that we have to go through all this crap though isn't it. Good luck with yours!

card I am sure you will be fine. We were lucky to find our Advocate who charges very little but he spoke very little at the hearing because he said it would be better coming from me if I was up for it which I was. He attended the hearing with me because DP is utterly useless with education stuff.

I took a photo of Dd3 to the hearing and asked the panel if they would like to see it, which they did. They said it was nice to see the real child in the middle of all this.

I would write down the absolute most important points that you want to make to make sure you dont miss anything. Our panel gave us a break towards the end and asked us to think about any really important things that we wanted to say and would kick ourselves if we went away without asking them!!

I had an opening and closing speech but ended up not really needing the opening one. I was a witness at a tribunal the day before and the parents were asked to do an opener to introduce their daughter to the panel so they had a mental picture of her. It was hard for them to to that on the spur of the moment without any preparation.

Stay calm and say what you need to say, I hope you get a good panel

Thanks Ineed!

It doesn't matter that you didn't number the paragraphs in the original appeal. I would try to avoid repetition - there's a danger that they may switch off if they think they've read it all before, which might mean they miss the new material you're putting in.

If you put emails in, go through them to make sure you're not duplicating, i.e. you're not putting the whole email string in over and over again, and also avoid putting in pages which are nothing more than the automatic printed bumph that LAs always have at the end of their emails.

Thanks Ici.
By the way, slightly off my original topic but for the opening and closing summaries, how long do you think it's reasonable to talk?

Not sure that you'll necessarily have an opportunity for a formal opening summary - it's not like a court hearing with each side having their "turn" at that point. The tribunal will start by saying what they think the issues are, and they'll probably turn to each of you to ask what you have to say about those issues. I'm sure you'll have identified the issues anyway so will be able to address them. Generally it's better to try to avoid reading out anything pre-prepared, but to have things in bullet points in front of you so you can be sure you don't leave anything out.

For the summing up, you'll need to bear the time in mind: they won't thank you for keeping them back from their lunch. I don't really know what the usual is, others maybe will - 20 minutes max, perhaps?

Thanks Ici. Actually I think 20 mind is plenty. You can say a lot in 20 mins!

I think my closing speech took less than 5 minutes as i just said it without any notes as such. The LA barrister took 30 seconds. I didn't give an opening speech as such the tribunal said what the issues were and then just asked us a few questions about our son and I think also to out us at ease. I walked away from my hearing feeling like I hadn't said enough and that worried me but now with the benefit of hindsight can see that the tribunal did ask all the relevant questions so there was no need for me to say that much. We won everything so obviously saying not a lot wasn't a bad sign as such.

Make sure also you take some drinks and snacks with you as you will be likely to be sharing the same coffee machine with the LA which I avoided doing.

Thanks bjk, all very useful advice, cheers!