Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

SN children

Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on special needs.

Flip

1 2

Original poster

help (again)! got letter from school re NC levels and i smell a big rat

37 replies

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 16:08

further from my post yesterday about my daughter being made to redo her tests - i sent a letter in today and asked what her results were (didnt mention that i knew about the re testing) but did mention that daughter had said she was a 2B - she is in year 5 - this is what was said-

wanted to see what she was capable with no support and then supported in the tests. i used the year 4 QCA tests as the wording is less challenging for her to decipher. she achieved a level 2b unaided in reading assessments. then with aid of a scribe and someone to keep her concentration (prompting her to read the questions and the booklet when her concentration was waning) she achieved a 4c . i have teacher assessed her as a 3b as realistically she will not always have someone to prompt her in concentration also her speed of reading meant that she did not finish within the designated time although i allowed her extra time and assessed her on that.

she completed a math QCA test. again used year 4 tests as language is less challenging. she was allowed to ask for help on any questions she did not understand. she achieved a 2a in the test. i feel she should have achieved better than this but under pressure in the test and lacking in confidence in herself she did not complete correctly many of the sums she has knowledge of. for this reason i have assessed her as a 2a/3c

we are working on positive praise to bring up her self comfidence in this area. on many occasions recently she has been saying she cannot do things because she is dyslexic or blaming her dyslexia for things taht happen. at school we are trying very hard to improve her self confidence and remind her that some things are more difficult and challenging when you are dyslexic but never impossible'

why are they giving her year 4 tests? when she is year 5? i get the feeling that its only cos i said my daughter told me she was a 2b that the school have come clean and would have and probably will give the tribunal the higher marks and in reality what are the tribunal going to make of this - will they accept that shes making good progress? the reading test has shot through the roof in the sense that in the last term she has made 3 points progress if you take teh schools score - if you take the first score with no help then she has dropped 3 points - so which is it? the testing done by dyslexia action and her dyslexia teacher put her on the 2nd centile whereas school are now trying to say shes up there with her peers which clearly she isnt!

OP posts:

alita7 · 09/04/2014 17:14

I would assume that they don't think she could achieve her potential in a year 5 test? Maybe ask for a copy of similar tests to do at home with her and see how she does then, with and without help and see what she gets then?

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 18:08

it feels like its a deliberate attempt to show progress when all they have now shown is taht with substantial help she can achieve - i bet the dont tell the LA about the 2b but says she is a 3b - which is a huge difference - im just shocked at how open the teacher has been about marking her up - even though she got a 2b with no help then got a 4c with help she decides oh it will be a 3b then - no it should be a 2b as thats her normal day to day level without help

OP posts:

EdgeOfNowhere · 09/04/2014 18:12

I'm afraid all of that help is perfectly legal in Y6 SATS.

You are allowed a prompter (to keep you focused), a scribe, and in all papers besides the reading paper you're allowed a reader.

You're also allowed extra time, movement breaks, enlarged text.....

So, if you don't make your feelings clear, she will get all this help in the Y6 SATS.

So, from their point of view they're doing exactly what they should be doing - helping your DD achieve the highest possible mark.

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 18:19

but its just smoke and mirrors - it is no reflection on her day to day work and in reality whose benefit is it for? not my daughters as tomorrow she will still be working a 2b which shows she is falling further and further behind - how does this benefit her at all with secondary looming - i would rather she had no help doing the tests and instead have support all the time at school so that she can do the tests unsupported - i suppose its also a guide that if she did get proper help in school then she could absolutely fly which is all that i want.

i know its also probably so that the school can show that she has made the 2 level progress from year 2 to year 6 so to keep their precious sats results up which is madness as the school doesnt even publish them - i just feel that they are throwing her to the wolves for secondary when she will be just a distant memory to them

OP posts:

Feenie · 09/04/2014 18:29

All of those things are only allowed if that's what happens day to day in the classroom - does your dd normally have things read to her?

EdgeOfNowhere · 09/04/2014 18:30

It is worth making your feelings clear now - if you don't wish her to have this support in the Y6 SATS - because it's probably never occurred to them.

Because most parents don't object to extra time etc.....

If you specify this now, it gives them more incentive to make sure she improves in the next 12 months.....

Technically it's totally school's decision, and they don't have to consult you. But of course it's also your decision whether or not to send her to school on SATs week......

Feenie · 09/04/2014 18:32

she was allowed to ask for help on any questions she did not understand

And that kind of help isn't available to anyone in SATs!

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 18:34

no feenie she doesnt - in fact school in the last meeting with the LA made it clear she was no longer getting any help from the TA as she was making such good progress - needless to say the LA made sure that part of the meeting was minuted! but then it gets confusing as when our OT went in to assess her she saw the TA (who is there for another statemented child) help my daughter so the OT questioned my daughter on this so the school are saying one thing and doing another - they will say whatever is needed to stop her getting the assessment

OP posts:

Feenie · 09/04/2014 18:46

KS2 ARA

Can't copy and paste on my Kindle, but check page 21 - for any of those arrangements they need to provide evidence of this kind of support being routinely used in the classroom.

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 18:51

thanks feenie - thats really useful to know - the school are changing their position all the time to what suits them in fighting her being assessed.

OP posts:

Feenie · 09/04/2014 18:57

Glad to help, hope you can help them see that they can't have it both ways regarding the tests.

trinity0097 · 09/04/2014 19:19

I've used KS1 tests with children as old as Yr 8 if they were working at that level. I would commonly use tests that are just one year behind if the child wasn't at the level of the correct tests.

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 19:26

i dont have an issue with the using tests for a younger child if thats the level that they feel is right for the child. my concern is that the school are sticking to the argument that she is making adequate progress when clearly she isnt and that will be my case before a tribunal panel so to now try and say her levels are much higher than a term ago is not a true reflection of how she is functioning. i just want people to be open and honest and not partake in this silly game of trying to up her levels - it is not going to help her long term at all. one minute she needs no TA support the next minute she does - that is what is concerning me

OP posts:

ouryve · 09/04/2014 19:35

You know what to do with this information. If the LA don't back out before the hearing and school use this as evidence that she has progressed, you have her levels that they've given with and without help to compare. Treat it as a gift. It's too late for this to be submitted as evidence, anyhow, but if the teacher brings up the "progress" as a witness, you are able to comment on the real figures, if given the opportunity. Maybe innocently ask for clarification "is the her result when she did the test alone, or the result when she sat it again with help?" [innocentface]

coppertop · 09/04/2014 19:37

Ds is now in Yr9 but his primary school had to follow the rules that Feenie has linked to. He was allowed to use a laptop for the SATs but only because that's what he usually used for his classwork, so this rule has been around for at least a few years now.

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 19:40

yes ouryve - thats exactly what i need to do and i suspect sadly the teacher will just give the LA the higher levels forcing it then to a full tribunal as the LA will think they have me in a corner with nowhere to go. this is the 3rd time now ive had to confront the school over this kind of thing, it is draining.......

OP posts:

Feenie · 09/04/2014 19:40

Donkey's years

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 19:42

or the other 'game' is that the teacher who i guess wants to be nowhere near a tribunal hearing is hoping that now i see these new higher levels i throw the towel in........

OP posts:

EasterTOWIEbunny · 09/04/2014 19:47

Is what the teacher said in written form or was it verbal?

If in written form, then ask the Tribunal if you can submit the entire email/letter chain as late evidence .

In your reasons for late evidence (or whatever it's called), state that this came to light after the evidence deadline but it is what is now happening at the school and so is crucial to your appeal. Actually, even if this was a verbal "conversation" submit a transcript as late evidence - it won't carry as much weight but it's worth a try.

The Tribunal may not allow it because it's late evidence but I have a feeling that, if they refuse to accept it now, you can try to submit it again on the day.

I'm not to sure about the rules on late evidence - in my Tribunal some of my late evidence was immediately allowed because it was the LAs own policy document (with their own costings for one of their schools) and the Tribunal said that as it was a LA document, they should have submitted it themselves. So they immediately allowed it.

But then something else I submitted as late evidence wasn't allowed, but was then allowed on the day. Same with the LA - they tried to go for a 4th witness 48 hours before the Tribunal - which the Tribunal refused 12 hours before Tribunal. But the woman turned up anyway on the day and in the "interests of justice" the Tribunal, at the very start of the hearing, allowed the LA to have a 4th witness. (Despite having 3 witnesses to their 4, we still won )

In your reasons for late evidence, state that unsupported she is working at Year 2/Year 3 levels so is three years behind her chronological. However, "unofficial" support has shown that she is capable of a lot more, but this "unofficial" support is totally at the discretion of the school and has been totally arbitrary and only because of your appeal. You want this support to become "official" within a Statement. You could also state once the appeal is over, if you lose, you feel that this arbitrary support will be withdrawn.

Do a very clear and concise document as to what has been going on and submit it as late evidence

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 19:52

what i wrote above towie was a written letter that i received today so it is word for word what the letter has said apart from the last bit where she said 'have a good easter break' although strangely its not on head school paper but just on a plain sheet of paper and she hasnt actually signed it but put her name and designation

OP posts:

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 19:53

in fact if i move to have it served as late evidence now - could be a good move as the school closes for easter tomorrow so LA wont be able to contact the school for 2 weeks to 'discuss' it with them

OP posts:

EasterTOWIEbunny · 09/04/2014 19:54

Do you have the envelope? Does it have the school's logo/details on it? Scan it and send it as part of the late evidence.

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 19:56

no - its in a plain white envelope with my name written on it - do you think its odd that its not on school headed paper? other letters ive sent in asking for stuff has been replied on headed paper.

OP posts:

EasterTOWIEbunny · 09/04/2014 20:15

Yes, it is odd - and very telling.

However, it doesn't matter that it wasn't signed - you just have to be a little bit more clever about it.

My recent LGO complaint was upheld because I submitted a report about certain events which took place when my LA "consulted" (I use that term very loosely) with their preferred school. The school told me what had happened, and I documented it and submitted it as Tribunal evidence. I didn't get the school to sign my report (which I should have done - although they would have refused). So it was an unconfirmed report from me.

However, during the Tribunal, when I stated what had happened, the judge herself directly asked the school if this was true. To which the school said "yes". So even though they hadn't signed my document, because the judge herself had asked about it, it became a "matter-of-fact".. So is now one of the reasons the LGO upheld my complaint.

So, the moral to my lengthy story is... During the Tribunal tell the judge that this letter was unsigned/unheaded paper directly from the school - and then leave it up to the judge to ask "is this true".

Still scan the envelope with just your name - just to double emphasis that this was unofficial

Original poster

bjkmummy · 09/04/2014 20:20

well the person who wrote it is being called as a witness so will be able to be asked by the panel about it. i just need to decided whether to formally submit it as late evidence now or wait to the day of the hearing - then wait and see what levels they start to talk about - the higher or lower ones

OP posts:

Flip

1 2