Being thumped/kicked- help! (Christie please read as well!)

[Jimjams2]

Putting this on here rather than ttr in the hope that people like christie used to challenging behaviours and strategies will read it as well

Yesterday, ds1 started thumping me, and occasionally stamping or kicking an outstretched leg. He's bored. There's no trigger, he's not cross, not trying to hurt me. He's done it occasionally before, but more in passing iykwim. He thumped ds2 on the head as well. He's hitting pretty hard. With the wrong angle the stamping could break a bone, and he's thumping quite hard. I'm a bit concerned he's going for siblings as well.

The trouble is I'm back to the problem of having no punishment. I started by putting him outside the room, which he didn't like the first time, but then found vaguley funny, this morning is finding highly amusing. I've tried turning him away in a bored way, but he sees that as a bit of cat and mouse and part of the game. I've tried saying "no" obviously (found that very funny). Shouting. Funny. I've tried saying "ow- hurts mummy"- he thinks that's funny.

Any ideas, I assume (hope!) this will stop on return to school when he's kept busy all day but could do without a few more weeks of it.

Ouch JJ! You must be covered in bruises.

No- because its mainly my head!

I prefer his other way of dealing with boredem. He keeps appearing with the jam- passes it to me and says "du dye am" ("bye bye jam" obviously) then runs off shrieking with laughter. ????????

Ah, yes.

The jam thing sounds quite amusing. But, Im guessing, its not..... Do you think he does it because he knows your MN name and is trying to tell you something?

Ah no the jam is an improvement. He was takig whole pots and emptying them down the sink (make a nice gloopy sound I guess), so I told him not to "bye bye jam", and put the jam in the fridge, so now it gets taken out and passed with a du dye am. He likes to tease.

lol @ du dye am. I love the sound of his sense of humour.
And arrrgh at the thumping. I guess the key thing is staying consistent if at all possible- so choosing the response that annoys you least is important- and then doing that every time even if he finds it funny. Hard work.

That's why I stuck wth the putting outside the room, but now he finds it hilarious, and will thump again immedaitely to get put outside, he likes the "routine-ness" and predicatability of the response as well i think. So now I am trying to look bored and ignore. Although can't when he goes for siblings.

He's been more into jam for the last hour or so though

That's why I stuck wth the putting outside the room, but now he finds it hilarious, and will thump again immedaitely to get put outside, he likes the "routine-ness" and predicatability of the response as well i think. So now I am trying to look bored and ignore. Although can't when he goes for siblings.

He's been more into jam for the last hour or so though

scummy- i could give you a list of things he finds amusing, most are funny, but funny and extremely irritating in equal measure!

Could you change the response each time or is that cruel?

Can understand slightly, DS does things to goad me regularly, and looks at me grinning whilst doing whatever it is, like thumping his big sis, or shoving banana into the t.v. or posting things out the catflap. When I say "no" he just laughs and goes ahead and does it. Finds "no" hilarious too.

Anyway, if nothing else - im bumping this for you

I've been trying to rotate

Yep that's exactly like ds1. Perfect eye contact when behaving like this (threatening to empty a cup of water on the floor- perfect eye contact - laughing away).

This is when of course that you realise half the research out there is bollards- autistic children (/adults!) aren't meant to be "able" to act like this. Teasing is ds1's favourite pastime.

We've been busy today so not much hitting thank god.

DS has had SIB of various levels for years but he's hardly hit other people. He went through a phase of it a while ago (not me though) and it was really awful, also no trigger and perfect eye contact. He's moved on to spitting instead, also doesn't do it to me, which I suppose is better than hitting. Obv your response should reflect the function of the behaviour, e.g. if he wants attention then don't give it (and putting outside the room is attention) but that's often cloud cuckoo land, esp with siblings at risk! I suspect it is a phase but, as we all know, whenever we get a horrid phase we panic that it might be long lasing or permanent. Have you tried a token system at home? Is there any reinforcement that he would care enough about? Also very hard to implement when you've got 2 others. These days I tend to roar "stop it" etc whenever DS does things I don't like, seems to work but not very scientific! I suppose you could try reinforcing doing something else with his hands or doing nothing with them? Ho hum, just hope it passes when school starts, not much help, sorry!

Maybe the rotating has worked then....?

oh god reinforcers are the bane of our life. As his anual review noted they switch daily, and its really hard to find a strong one. Today "no more bye bye jam if you do that" might have worked Shrieking "uuuuhh uhhhh uhhh" sometimes works, stops a behaviour in its tracks, but doesn't stop it happening again iyswim.

Is your ds back at school Davros? (jealous look is so )

OMG- scratchy thing is such a good idea. Hmm will have a think, and yes you got it all summarised beautfifully. When he went to pinch at school they shook his hand really vigorously, which didn't work at home- but thinking about it that might have been because he didn't like them touching him suddenly, but doesn't mind us iyswim. I need the cat- he doesn't like her running against him. His understanding has come on a lot, maybe threatening the cat will do it

thank you!

Yes good idea, I'll hunt around for something aversive.

Thank you!

AH, JJ you have just answered a question for me.
DS often hits out at me and kicks me for no reason especially if we are out somewhere, shopping etc and i have always wondered why, now im thinking that is this an auti side effect although i know that my and your DS ASD are different to each other.

When i tell DS to stop he does it more, and so i have had to ignore it as i think that he is doing it for attention, (not saying thats the case with your DS) but my DS is nearly 10 and nearly as tall as me and it does hurt and its not nice. So can sympathise with you on this one.

Message withdrawn

Christie, do you have parents that won't allow this sort of deterrent becuase it will distress their child?
I am having problems with some of the parents in my childs class but don't want to go into detail.

Sorry for hijack JJ.

Hmmm, I'm not too happy with the aversive route unless its absolutely necessary but also proven to be effective (so obv you'd have to try it to find that out).
For this very difficult behaviour wouldn't it be better to bring out the "big guns"? Chocolate, crisps or whatever he's allowed in the food area that is a treat?
I know its very hard to implement as a parent and be consistent and manage the other children while its going on (they will also want the choc) but maybe DS2 could help? I'd use a very simple token board as I would be desperate to solve this one.
Having said/written all that I'm now thinking back to what we did when DS was hitting. I honestly can't remember but I have a strong feeling that it was nothing so organised!

We don't have any big guns though Davros, that's the problem. Lack of reinforcers is a huge problem that kind of pervades everything- ds1's "curious passivity" as his teacher put it. He also said :what floats his boat one day will hold no interest the next", he actually stopped all straight PECS exhange work because they just couldn't get the motivators (they do a lot of I am working for now,).

Today I've gone the more verbal route. "If you hit then...." He's actually getting much better at listening to verbal consequences. "if you take of your seat belt then no car" has cut leaping out of seat belts dramatically. Not too much hitting today, but I took him out all day, swimming this morning, campervan viewings this afternoon.